Can a nursery require unpaid overtime from minimum wage staff?

[Stressedoutmummyof3]

If your company decides to stop paying you overtime can they still make you work the extra hours? It's not me but my DD who's been told this. No pay and no time off. It's shocking. They know the staff won't just walk out at the end of their shift because they work in a nursery so they aren't going to put extra stress on their colleagues or put the kids at risk. I'm pretty sure they are breaking the law because they only get paid minimum wage? So if they do overtime surely that takes them below minimum wage?
If they aren't breaking the law AIBU to say they are taking the piss?
YABU it's the nature of the job
YANBU they should be paid or get time off

Yes it would be against the law as they are then paying them below the minimum wage.

No, they must be paid NMW for the hours worked and if not, ACAS can advise on what to do.

They must also receive statutory breaks and annual leave, so cannot be made to work during those times.

No. There's no such thing as unpaid overtime...it's called taking advantage

HR Professional here - no that would take them under NMW and therefore would be unlawful.

They are breaking the law. Not sure which government department does this, probably HMRC, but they regularly put out a list to media of disgusting employers who flout the law and underpay their workers.

If they insist on DD doing unpaid work I would contact HMRC and Citizens Advice. I'm sure there must be whistle blowing avenues to protect both the workers AND the children.

Edit
This is from AI overview but there were links to gov.uk listing the companies.

The government publishes the official list of employers who break National Minimum Wage (NMW) rules in periodic "naming and shamed" announcements. The most recent list features nearly 400 employers who underpaid around 60,000 workers, owing over £7.3 million in back pay and facing an additional £12.6 million in penalties.

Yes you report to HMRC. They will go in and work out the hourly rate based on how many hours are actually worked (so records need keeping) and taking into accounts any deductions to pay for costs employee has to cover

Is it hours or 20 minutes. I know carers in private care homes can get shafted like this, they finish their shift on the wards but have to fill out daily log, tidy their stuff when the shift ends, 20 minutes daily adds up.

It’s illegal and firms get fined for doing, pulling stunts like this

https://www.acas.org.uk/if-your-wages-are-not-paid/raising-an-issue-with-your-employer

ACAS can give advice on this matter

https://www.gov.uk/overtime-your-rights

possibly print out the government information and leave it on the managers desk as a first step. Give it 7 days and then print out a list of the companies fined and shamed, leave that on the desk. I’d hand it to my manager but your daughter may not have the confidence to do so at first

It’s illegal regardless and why companies get fined and named

It's illegal. And may be a sign that after recent changes the nursery is not financially viable.

They should complain to HMRC here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/pay-and-work-rights-complaints

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hundreds-of-employers-handed-penalties-for-illegally-underpaying-workers

here is the list along with the amounts they owe

Op

get your daughter to keep a diary of the days, times etc she is working without pay

It's not unusual for nurseries to try this, but it is illegal and lots do end up getting reported and fined!

It is illegal for anyone to be paid less than minimum wage for time spent working.
Your dd doesn't get paid for the time in between walking through the entry and actually starting work (time to hang upher cpat, put her packed lunch in the fridge and go to the loo perhaps) nor for any faffing at the end of thr day between when she is told "ok you can go now" and actually walking out. But every minute between those times needs to be either paid or an actual full break (ie away from kids, not supervising their lunch or anything like that, or doing paperwork).

DD should keep careful written records of working times. When she is working past her contracted hours she needs to have a clear record of why - is her supervisor still giving her active instructions for things to do, is it that there's only one child uncollected and actually only one or two staff members need to be there but all staff are staying out of team spirit.

At the next payday she needs to first raise it directly in writing with the employer, including copies of all the evidence - these were my working hours, I have only been paid for this much, there is a further £xx due which I haven't been paid for. Obviously they will refuse at that point but then she can follow the various routes laid out here www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage/worker-disputes-over-minimum-wage to get it resolved.

Yes, she needs good records of when she is actually 'at work'. It's not enough that her shift is officially (say) 8 until 6 with one hour lunch and her pay slip says she was paid NMW for these hours if she was told to be in and ready to work by 7.30, only had half an hour for lunch and wasn't able to go until 6.20 when the last child had been collected and any cleaning/tidying etc had been done.

I would have thought that a nursery would have some way of signing in/out for fire regulations and also so they can show during inspections that they're meeting required staffing levels, so she can use these records to demonstrate not being paid NMW. Is there any staff representation? A union or 'employee spokesperson' she can talk to, who can talk to management on everyone's behalf?

Report to Acas or Fair Work Agency

I work in a nursery/pre school and are paid for every bit of over time we do. In fact our finishing time for parents is 2:45pm but we are paid up until 3pm to give us time to pack away and talk to parents if needed. They are breaking the law.

Yes it’s breaking the law if they are on NMW.

Employers like your DD's make me very angry: trying to increase their profits by shafting their dedicated staff. They don't deserve to have good people working for them. Yes it is unlawful for the reasons posted above, the nursery is obviously counting on their employees not knowing their rights so I hope your DD challenges this.

On a slightly separate note: does anyone agree that nursery work should not be a NMW job (which should be for fully unskilled jobs)? It may not require specific qualifications but does need 'soft' skills and trustworthiness. So imo your DD's employer is ripping off its workers twice over.

It’s sadly common, especially in that environment and it’s not right at all. I had to work unpaid overtime when I worked at Next many years ago, terrible company. Now I’m older and am more confident about laws, standing up for myself etc, I wouldn’t put up with it. It’s harder when you’re young and worry about complaining as you need a reference elsewhere etc.

Thanks for the replies. I thought it must be unlawful because she isn't getting minimum wage if she does unpaid overtime. The trouble is it's a job that you really can't just say I finish now I'm going home because of ratios and because my DD and I'm sure most of the other staff actually care about the children and want them to be safe. Unfortunately that's what management are relying on.
I can't believe they are struggling money wise, it's a massive company and they have nurseries abroad too. If it was a small nursery I'd assume it was about money.

i’d suggest the late parents should pay the overtime! or a nominal sum that’ll sharpen them up to picking up on time.

so it might be helpful if that convo is held with the manager to see if she agrees.

That could stop the recurring late parents in future from thinking “oh i’ll just pick up the dry cleaning on the way and be ten mins late as the nursery wont mind” Yeah they will and itll cost you x amount.

Well I thought it was standard for there to be an extra charge if parents didn't pick their DC up on time from nursery.

I've certainly heard friends/colleagues mention it and what is the charge for if it's not to pay for extra staff costs in the form of overtime?