Any recommended genderist writers?

[bonfireoftheverities]

"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." - John Stuart Mill

This is something I've tried to keep in mind over the last half dozen or so years since I heard TWAW, thought "What?" and fairly quickly found FWR. So I've made sure to read as much as I can take from those who truly believe that men can be women, or if they don't actually believe it (because how can you, deep down?), desperately want it to be true. I say as much as I can take because after a while you've seen and heard it all before, and it never starts being convincing.

The latest pile of nonsense I dove into is this: The End of Trans Rights in the UK Is the Start of Democratic Collapse. Dear god, that almost made my brain melt. The links alone show you that he never strays outside an idiotic bubble (Helen Webberley being the first I clicked into).

Is there anyone you can recommend who makes their case without lying and relying on liars?

What specifically did you think were the lies in that article?

If you genuinely want to hear the other side's perspective, a good starting point would be to not immediately dismiss and poo-poo everything you read. If you read a claim and you're not sure if it's true, do some further research before you dismiss it. You might find yourself surprised, GC spaces aren't exactly immune from spreading misinformation either.

Archive version. https://archive.ph/AQCNJ

I vaguely remember JKR saying that before she entered the debate she read a lot of trans activist stuff. I think she mentioned Grace Lavery and Andrea Long Chu. Also Judith Butler, of course. But you might as well read books by people who think the earth is flat - it doesn’t matter how good they are as writers, it’s still completely nonsense.

Whipping girl by Julia Serrano is another one I think JKR mentioned.

I recommend Trans Britain: our journey from the shadows by Christine Burns:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-Britain-Christine-Burns/dp/1783528443

And The hidden case of Ewan Forbes by Zöe Playdon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hidden-Case-Ewan-Forbes-Establishment/dp/1526619148

The first is made up of essays by a number of writers, and the second is an account of the 1960s court case about a transman who claimed a peerage, interleaved with a history of trans over the last 100 years illustrated by reference to 'his' life.

Both are available at my local library.

Both brought me the closest I've been to an understanding of how trans people really see the issue.

When I read the Playdon book, I had no idea either Playdon or Forbes was trans, so the experience was rather more exciting for me than it would be for most readers, with the penny only dropping when it was sort-of-revealed how 'Ewan' managed to win the case. It would make a great movie or TV series.

Thanks for the recommendations. I've read some of all of the above except for @theilltemperedamateur's suggestions, which will be next on the list. To whom it may concern: I didn't immediately dismiss. I merely summed up.

Plenty of good peaking material already posted. I would also recommend More Than Just A Flag, the autobiography of Monica Helms, the guy who designed the trans flag. It is quite the illuminating read.

Ever thought about whether your priors prevent you from ever interpreting the other's case as true?

'Priors' such as understanding that mammals can't change sex?

Thanks for proving my point.

Saying that 'mammals can change sex' is demonstrably wrong.

Why would I want to interpret something that is a flat-out lie as the truth?

Being untethered from reality is not a good thing.

Still not getting it? Sex is not gender. Again, priors matter.

I was writing about sex. This is why I used the word 'sex'.

Edit. You never answered my original question. Is 'understanding that mammals can't change sex' an example of what you consider to be a 'prior'?

Is 'understanding that mammals can't change sex' an example of what you consider to be a 'prior'?

Yes. And the problem is its irrelevant to the trans experience because it's about identifying with the opposite gender that their sex is associated with. Of course another priors limitation for gender critical feminists is their skepticism about gender.

When I first became aware of the issue, I so badly didn’t want to be a terf. ‘I’m in a bubble’ I thought, ‘I’m being radicalised’. So I tried listening to a bunch of trans podcasts and every one of them was just so much self-obsession and nonsensical, whiny word salad.

However, some people who identify as trans and have undergone body modification do actually assert that they have changed sex.

That's a fringe view amongst trans people. Technically, some sex traits can be altered but obviously not reproductive sex.

When I was fairly new to this debate I read Trans by Helen Joyce. It was well researched, logical and interesting.

In order to be fully fair I also picked up a copy of... uhhh... something by Shon Faye. What a pile of piffle it was. Basically TWAW because they say so. No research, no facts. Basically a load of bollocks. Pun intended.

A fringe view... that was argued in court... by a Dr, no less*.

*I've read it more than once on here, a lot on Reddit and heard it IRL too. I would describe it as surprisingly common (considering how wrong it is), especially in males who identify as trans and have been on exogenous, cross-sex hormones (eg oestrogen).

Context matters though. Maybe they were discussing how sex isn't binary but bi modal which is a discussion not about disputing how the sex reproductive system distinguishes males from females but how sex trait distribution influences how society distinguishes males from females.

1. Sex is binary.
2. They are saying that they have actually changed sex.

The sex reproductive system is binary as in gamete design. Sex traits are not. Individuals may possess different combinations of chromosome type, gamete size, hormone level & morphology.

So context is important.

I am specifically writing about the sex categories of male and female, as my comment was regarding people (including the Dr mentioned earlier) who have claimed to have moved from one category (male) to the other category (female).

I hope that clarifies the context for you.

So these people allegedly claimed they changed their gametes? Again details matter so no you haven’t clarified anything.

And that's not something that I have seen before. Do you have any evidence of this?

Of course, they haven't actually changed sex. That doesn't stop them from claiming that they have (i.e., making an untrue claim).

https://archive.ph/XrGGw