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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caster Semenya court case due 15 May

71 replies

QuetzalTerfLus · 01/05/2024 19:15

I was wondering about Caster Semenya today and googled to find this -

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1143701/semenya-ask-help-funding-legal-battle

which notes that the next hearing is scheduled for 15 May - does anyone know if that is still on track (haha) to happen?

Athlete Caster Semenya asks for help to fund her legal battle

South African athlete Caster Semenya, a double Olympic gold medallist who has been banned from competing in several distances because she refuses to u...

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1143701/semenya-ask-help-funding-legal-battle

OP posts:
Oblomov24 · 01/05/2024 19:19

Interesting.

PriOn1 · 01/05/2024 19:44

Hmm, yes. I can think of better things to spend my money on. Like things for women.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 01/05/2024 19:56

IAAF finalised their rules for competitors in the female class with 46XY DSDs in March last year.

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6%20%E2%80%93%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification%20%E2%80%93%20effective%2031%20March%202023

They are required to take androgen blockers. Semenya refuses to do this because it has side effects, and presumably this is the basis of her human rights case. There are a few other athletes with the same condition, such as Margaret Wambui.

I hope that she loses, but I'm not happy about athletes being encouraged to take androgen blockers either. I think that they should be banned outright. They may be legally and socially female but they have bodies shaped by male puberty, giving them an unfair advantage even with androgen blockade.

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6+%E2%80%93+Eligibility+Regulations+for+the+Female+Classification+%E2%80%93+effective+31+March+2023

yesmen · 01/05/2024 21:27

theilltemperedclavecinist · 01/05/2024 19:56

IAAF finalised their rules for competitors in the female class with 46XY DSDs in March last year.

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6%20%E2%80%93%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification%20%E2%80%93%20effective%2031%20March%202023

They are required to take androgen blockers. Semenya refuses to do this because it has side effects, and presumably this is the basis of her human rights case. There are a few other athletes with the same condition, such as Margaret Wambui.

I hope that she loses, but I'm not happy about athletes being encouraged to take androgen blockers either. I think that they should be banned outright. They may be legally and socially female but they have bodies shaped by male puberty, giving them an unfair advantage even with androgen blockade.

Caster lives as a man of the field and has fathered children.

DuesToTheDirt · 01/05/2024 22:28

Everything about Caster is male. Attitude, wearing just shorts on the beach (I'm sure you've all seen the picture), voice, manspreading, sense of entitlement...

Will I get deleted for this?

GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave · 01/05/2024 23:22

Yep. It's completely ridiculous to refer to him as 'she'.

And you forgot his misogynistic rantings about females. Can't believe the number of people who refuse to be kind to the actual women forced to race against him.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 01/05/2024 23:39

Y chromosome = male

It doesn’t matter how many Xs are present or how many Ys.

Any Ys = male
Exclusively Xs = female

ILikeDungs · 01/05/2024 23:53

theilltemperedclavecinist · 01/05/2024 19:56

IAAF finalised their rules for competitors in the female class with 46XY DSDs in March last year.

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6%20%E2%80%93%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification%20%E2%80%93%20effective%2031%20March%202023

They are required to take androgen blockers. Semenya refuses to do this because it has side effects, and presumably this is the basis of her human rights case. There are a few other athletes with the same condition, such as Margaret Wambui.

I hope that she loses, but I'm not happy about athletes being encouraged to take androgen blockers either. I think that they should be banned outright. They may be legally and socially female but they have bodies shaped by male puberty, giving them an unfair advantage even with androgen blockade.

Why do this?

Why use 'she' and 'her' when referring to a male on FWR?

He is a male trying to run in the female category. Trying to take spaces/awards/ money from real women. He has a body shaped by male puberty because HE IS MALE.

Just think on this. Women must stop giving their words away. Don't speak their lies.

PlumDog · 02/05/2024 01:25

> It doesn’t matter how many Xs are present or how many Ys.

Not accurate, there are cases of pregnant women with Y chromosomes.

The issue is still relatively simple though - Caster Semenya has testes and is sensitive to testosterone, and is therefore in sporting terms is clearly male.

User2460177 · 02/05/2024 01:27

I was shocked to find out he is genetically a man and has a dsd that only men get. The news coverage on this pretty much never mentions this

DifficultBloodyWoman · 02/05/2024 01:28

PlumDog · 02/05/2024 01:25

> It doesn’t matter how many Xs are present or how many Ys.

Not accurate, there are cases of pregnant women with Y chromosomes.

The issue is still relatively simple though - Caster Semenya has testes and is sensitive to testosterone, and is therefore in sporting terms is clearly male.

You are referring to fetal dna in a blood test.

Chromosome tests (karyotyping) is a different test.

Delphinium20 · 02/05/2024 01:57

Whenever I hear about Semenya, I wonder about that unknown South African woman who lost her shot to run for her country's Olympic team because of the grift of seeking out males with this condition for competition.

PlumDog · 02/05/2024 02:32

> You are referring to fetal dna in a blood test.

> Chromosome tests (karyotyping) is a different test.

I'm referring to the fact that (in the context of a discussion about DSDs) some women do in fact have Y chromosomes
E.g., https://karger.com/sxd/article-abstract/13/2/83/296333/A-47-XXY-Pregnant-Woman-without-the-SRY-Gene

There are other cases such as mosaicism where women might have Y chromosomes in some cells but not others. However in the case above the 47,XXY karyotype is pure, no mosaic, and the subject is unambiguously female (in that she has ovaries, a womb, and got pregnant).

Issue Cover

A 47,XXY Pregnant Woman without the SRY Gene

Abstract. Individuals with a 47,XXY karyotype usually present with a male phenotype due to the additional Y chromosome. In this paper, we describe a 47,XXY female who was pregnant with a fetus of the same karyotype based on chromosome analysis of amnio...

https://karger.com/sxd/article-abstract/13/2/83/296333/A-47-XXY-Pregnant-Woman-without-the-SRY-Gene?redirectedFrom=fulltext

CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment · 02/05/2024 02:33

yesmen · 01/05/2024 21:27

Caster lives as a man of the field and has fathered children.

What?? Surely this should be enough proof to put him in the man category.

NotBadConsidering · 02/05/2024 03:28

Semenya is 100% male. It’s speculative but likely that he has fathered his two children, on the basis that he is married to a woman, has testes that produce sperm and in none of the news reports does it mention a donor or any sort.

But regardless of that, children or no children, Semenya is not a woman and shouldn’t be in the women’s category. We still have the ridiculous situation of males in the women’s category; Christine Mboma has taken medication to suppress testosterone so is therefore eligible to compete and is trying to qualify for Paris in the 200m.

PlumDog · 02/05/2024 03:35

Should add that the test they used to in the Olympics was not for a Y chromosome, but for the SRY gene.

The SRY gene is normally located on Y but can as a mutation end up on X, resulting in a fairly normal male phenotype (i.e. penis, testicles, ejaculate (albeit infertile))

46,XX SRY+ is male, 46,XY SRY- is female.

DifficultBloodyWoman · 02/05/2024 09:16

PlumDog · 02/05/2024 02:32

> You are referring to fetal dna in a blood test.

> Chromosome tests (karyotyping) is a different test.

I'm referring to the fact that (in the context of a discussion about DSDs) some women do in fact have Y chromosomes
E.g., https://karger.com/sxd/article-abstract/13/2/83/296333/A-47-XXY-Pregnant-Woman-without-the-SRY-Gene

There are other cases such as mosaicism where women might have Y chromosomes in some cells but not others. However in the case above the 47,XXY karyotype is pure, no mosaic, and the subject is unambiguously female (in that she has ovaries, a womb, and got pregnant).

Thank you. I had no idea that Klinefelter Syndrome ever presented with a female phenotype.

MrSand · 02/05/2024 09:27

The XXY woman has the same karyotype as a Klinefelter Syndrome male, but does not herself have Klinefelter Syndrome, which by definition affects males.

CantWaitForJustice · 02/05/2024 09:31

theilltemperedclavecinist · 01/05/2024 19:56

IAAF finalised their rules for competitors in the female class with 46XY DSDs in March last year.

https://worldathletics.org/download/download?filename=2ffb8b1a-59e3-4cea-bb0c-5af8b690d089.pdf&urlslug=C3.6%20%E2%80%93%20Eligibility%20Regulations%20for%20the%20Female%20Classification%20%E2%80%93%20effective%2031%20March%202023

They are required to take androgen blockers. Semenya refuses to do this because it has side effects, and presumably this is the basis of her human rights case. There are a few other athletes with the same condition, such as Margaret Wambui.

I hope that she loses, but I'm not happy about athletes being encouraged to take androgen blockers either. I think that they should be banned outright. They may be legally and socially female but they have bodies shaped by male puberty, giving them an unfair advantage even with androgen blockade.

Why on EARTH are you calling him “she”??

theilltemperedclavecinist · 02/05/2024 09:32

Semenya has a complex DSD, which is to say the different factors making up her sex are at odds. Chromosomes and gonads = male. Genitalia, birth certificate and sex of rearing = female. It's usual now to defer medical intervention and allow the child to grow into its gender identity. In some countries she might have treatment just prior to puberty (gonadectomy/oestrogen/vaginoplasty) resulting in an adult body with female gross morphology, and her medical history would be nobody else's business.

Semenya has gone through male puberty and should be banned from female competition. Because she has an unfair advantage. Because androgen blockers are a health risk. And because keeping her within the rules incentivises talent scouts to look for these children and persuade their families to choose a course of action for financial gain rather than best medical outcome.

But it doesn't mean anything, or achieve anything, to say she's 'really' a man. She's the one with the DSD, so she gets to choose.

Also, if what her wife is reported to have said is accurate, it's likely that her children are donor conceived (not that it's any of our business). People with this condition do not produce spermatazoa. They can sometimes reproduce with the aid of ROSI, but that is not what the wife has described.

Chersfrozenface · 02/05/2024 09:43

Sex of rearing = female.

Not exactly accurate. Semenya wore boys' uniform in secondary school and was allowed to because everyone could see that his body was male.

And from accounts by family and teachers, spent his time in traditionally male pursuits. And again, was allowed to.

All this in a very sexist society.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 02/05/2024 09:48

Chersfrozenface · 02/05/2024 09:43

Sex of rearing = female.

Not exactly accurate. Semenya wore boys' uniform in secondary school and was allowed to because everyone could see that his body was male.

And from accounts by family and teachers, spent his time in traditionally male pursuits. And again, was allowed to.

All this in a very sexist society.

This isn't just about Semenya though is it? All 46XY athletes of this type should be banned, and it's a distraction talking about their manly personalities or whatever. It's the biology that needs spelling out super clearly.

NotBadConsidering · 02/05/2024 09:52

theilltemperedclavecinist · 02/05/2024 09:32

Semenya has a complex DSD, which is to say the different factors making up her sex are at odds. Chromosomes and gonads = male. Genitalia, birth certificate and sex of rearing = female. It's usual now to defer medical intervention and allow the child to grow into its gender identity. In some countries she might have treatment just prior to puberty (gonadectomy/oestrogen/vaginoplasty) resulting in an adult body with female gross morphology, and her medical history would be nobody else's business.

Semenya has gone through male puberty and should be banned from female competition. Because she has an unfair advantage. Because androgen blockers are a health risk. And because keeping her within the rules incentivises talent scouts to look for these children and persuade their families to choose a course of action for financial gain rather than best medical outcome.

But it doesn't mean anything, or achieve anything, to say she's 'really' a man. She's the one with the DSD, so she gets to choose.

Also, if what her wife is reported to have said is accurate, it's likely that her children are donor conceived (not that it's any of our business). People with this condition do not produce spermatazoa. They can sometimes reproduce with the aid of ROSI, but that is not what the wife has described.

This is nonsense. There’s nothing complex at all. 5 alpha 2 reductase deficiency leads to a failure of development of external genitalia.

They don’t get vaginoplasties. There is nothing to suggest Semenya was “reared” as the female sex. There’s no such thing as gender identity so Semenya doesn’t get to choose. Semenya is male, so should be referred to as such, regardless of what he wants.

Men with this condition have a significantly reduced sperm count, sometimes zero, but it’s not impossible to father children, particularly if you have access to fertility services using the accumulated wealth from stealing prize money from women.

AGlinnerOfHope · 02/05/2024 09:56

No one is forcing Semenya to take androgen suppressants.

He only needs to do that if he wants to cheat compete with women.

QuetzalTerfLus · 02/05/2024 09:56

I also found this article
https://www.reuters.com/sports/athletics/semenya-case-referred-european-rights-courts-grand-chamber-2023-11-06/

which includes this fair comment
“World Athletics has only ever been interested in protecting the female category. If we don’t, then women and young girls will not choose sport," a spokesperson told Reuters.

and the very pertinent comment from Caster that Caster is "Fighting for the upcoming generation, because there are a lot of kids that are affected by the same ruling. This battle will not finish now. We will fight until the end."

”a lot of” kids (note: not girls) with those same specific DSDs coming up through competitive sport and assuming (or more likely their coaches assume) that they can compete in the female category. Who could have predicted that?

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