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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Are the ultimatums a form of controlling bullying behaviour

17 replies

Dontwantthedrama · 27/01/2024 11:28

When I read threads about women who are fed up waiting for a proposal, they’re not getting enough sex, their partner won’t take them on dates, they feel ignored and unappreciated, they do all of the housework or they hate their MIL, it makes me wonder is this a form of controlling the partner into being who they want? Is it fair to demand they change who they are to suit the other?
What I’m trying to get at is, is it ever possible to change those issues and find happiness without resorting to ultimatums?
So for example, ending the relationship if they’re not engaged by X date, is that cutting your nose off to spite your face?
Ending the relationship because your MIL is a narcissistic bully, essentially telling him he has to chose a relationship with you OR his mother, not both?
If you don’t get X amount of sex a week you will look elsewhere or leave to find someone with the same sex drive, controlling them into having sex they don’t want to keep their marriage?
Im going through a rocky patch with
my partner for background. I’m his first long term relationship despite being in his 30s, he doesn’t have a clue about relationships or making a woman happy. I told him it was make or break time, he broke down because he doesn’t know what to do. Despite asking for more and telling him what I need he doesn’t quite get it as he has no experience and he’s constantly worried about getting it wrong so gives up. I have him the benefit of the doubt many times, now ultimatums feel like I’m bullying him to do as I say or else. It’s making me uncomfortable. I ended our relationship and now I’m having second thoughts because he’s not a bad person, he just doesn’t understand women need romance, passion and attention more than once a month. It overwhelms him. I hate initiating and taking control, but it makes him feel safe.
So aside from my issue, are all of my questions valid and what is your view on my theory?
Is incompatibility still a form of attempted bullying to change each other to save a relationship?

OP posts:
AnneLovesGilbert · 27/01/2024 11:32

You were right to dump him. He shouldn’t need to be shown how to be a decent boyfriend. Never make a man a project. Move on and don’t look back.

I’m not a fan of ultimatums and have never issued one but on the contrary to what you say you see on here I see far more women putting up with pathetic specimens and too afraid to ask for what they want because they’re terrified to be alone or look demanding or pushy.

gannett · 27/01/2024 11:36

Ending the relationship is preferable to issuing ultimatums. I don't understand people who want to change their partner's behaviour or personality. Yes, in relationships (and in life) we all evolve but this is an organic process, it isn't the result of someone trying to mould us into something we're not. When you enter a relationship surely the point is not just that you accept them for who they are but that that's precisely why you love them. And if you don't like who they are then yes, you're absolutely right to end it! It doesn't mean anyone's a "bad person" if you're just incompatible.

Bobbotgegrinch · 27/01/2024 11:40

No, it's not bullying as long as you mean it.

You're entitled to end a relationship because you're not getting what you want from it. And you're allowed to give fair warning to the other person. You're not forcing them to change, you're giving them a choice. Either they want to be in a relationship with you and commit to it fully, or they don't.

ChanelNo19EDT · 27/01/2024 11:40

It depends, if you have children already then even if you leave, you're going to pay a higher price for parenthood.

Nothing wrong with an ultimatum imo but it has to come from within like a moment of lucidity "I deserve more respect than this". Then you communicate that.

ColdButSunny · 27/01/2024 11:42

I think an ultimatum is ok if the alternative is to suddenly end the relationship without warning when the other person didn't realise this was a deal breaker for you. Repeated ultimatums are pointless though.

cooroocoocoo · 27/01/2024 11:45

You did the right thing. Ultimatums bring resentment on both sides (I think - I haven't used them in romantic relationships).

I am sceptical a tad of anyone neurotypical being unable to "understand women need romance, passion and attention more than once a month".

AnnaMagnani · 27/01/2024 11:45

I met my DH in his late 30s. He'd never had a long term relationship and was living with his mother. And is v likely ASD.

Despite this he managed to figure out all for himself that women prefer men who aren't arseholes in a relationship.

You weren't controlling, your ex is just not relationship material.

148923C · 27/01/2024 11:45

So I’ve got a situation, Ive (23) been with my boyfriend (29) almost 4 years. We have a 2 year old daughter and another baby on the way, due in July.

Throughout the relationship I’ve always had the same job and I’m working very hard to progress in this, however my partner has had multiple jobs, he’s always managed to get another job fairly quickly after losing the last one but still he must have had atleast 10 different jobs since being together. He lost his last job in December and has only had ad hoc work since. Also to mention he owes me almost £3,000, as I’ve always had savings (which I’ve saved myself) and us moving into our own place I’ve spent a fair bit of money which he always said he’ll pay back and he was paying it back when he was continuously working.

This is where I’m a bit stuck, he owes me this money but has booked a rave with his mates and is getting annoyed with me because with the situation we’re in I don’t think he should be going, as he owes me so much and also has borrowed money to other people recently for a car. I think he should just wait until he’s in a better position financially. All the ad hoc work he’s doing, he’s not paying me anything from it as he ‘needs to save money for the rave’ yet I’m still skinting myself out because I’m having to still pay our bills as everything is in my name so I don’t want to get into debt and I’m getting nothing back towards this at the minute. Every-time I bring this up to him he goes mad at me calling me controlling and I just need some advice really on what I should do.

Another thing is, he tends to drink a lot. Every night he ends up drunk, even when he promises me he won’t drink, every little last bit of his money also goes towards this and he ends up being horrible to me when he is drunk. I ask him to reduce the amount he drinks, for our lives, our kids lives and for his own health but then again he tells me he’s sick of me telling him what to do.

Lastly, like I mentioned I’m working a lot at the minute but yet I’m still expected to come home, do our daughters dinner, do her bedtime routine and then do our dinner, I don’t get to sit down until gone 8pm every night, also to mention I’m suffering a lot this pregnancy with something called hyperemesis so I’m really unwell too, if I ask him to cook dinner I just get back the response ‘I can’t cook’ so if I don’t do it we just won’t eat.

I really need some advice/support as my boyfriend keeps telling me that I’m ’nagging at him’ and ‘ruining his mental health’ and I’m the reason his mental health is so bad, but I genuinely feel like I’m all alone at the minute and I’m suffering with my mental health too and all of this on top of everything in the pregnancy is super stressing me out.

ChanelNo19EDT · 27/01/2024 11:48

@Dontwantthedrama in yr situation, you communicated what you need to your partner and he cried. How did you feel when he cried? Did you feel "shame" for having the expectation that he meet your needs? Did you feel shame for upsetting him??

What do you think his tears communicated? Was he crying because he cannot give you what you ask for? Or was he crying because he is the victim of your neediness??

It is not an "ultimatum" to recognise that something isn't working for you. You don't owe to this guy to fit in with his needs at the expense of your own.

It's ok to have an agenda. Women without a strong sense of themself are easily shamed into fitting in around other people.

owlsinthedaylight · 27/01/2024 11:49

Bobbotgegrinch · 27/01/2024 11:40

No, it's not bullying as long as you mean it.

You're entitled to end a relationship because you're not getting what you want from it. And you're allowed to give fair warning to the other person. You're not forcing them to change, you're giving them a choice. Either they want to be in a relationship with you and commit to it fully, or they don't.

This. An ultimatum is not a way of forcing someone to change. It’s a way of communicating your boundaries clearly so you can part ways if you are not compatible. This is particularly the case if one partner is trying to compromise and the other isn’t.

noooooooo · 27/01/2024 11:52

Doesn’t sound like a control issue so much as a compatibility issue. I think the whole either marry me or we split thing is weird - why pressure someone into something they don’t want to do? Marriage doesn’t miraculously change anything (apart from your legal position in the event of divorce) - but saying ‘this relationship isn’t working for me, here’s what I would like to do differently’ is fair enough. If you’re doing right by them but meeting your reasonable needs doesn’t appeal to the other party, that’s a fair point to say let’s move on.

gannett · 27/01/2024 11:53

cooroocoocoo · 27/01/2024 11:45

You did the right thing. Ultimatums bring resentment on both sides (I think - I haven't used them in romantic relationships).

I am sceptical a tad of anyone neurotypical being unable to "understand women need romance, passion and attention more than once a month".

Well I think "romance, passion and attention" mean different things to different people and everyone - neurotypical or not - naturally prioritises them to different extents. Most traditionally romantic gestures make me cringe my face off, I associate passion with unnecessarily dramatic on-off relationships and while I like attention I probably like me time more. So I think I would be a bad partner for the OP, but maybe wouldn't find anything lacking in her ex. And luckily I've got a DP who's as unromantic as I am, so... that's compatibility, even if we'd both fall short of other people's romantic ideals.

If a boyfriend wanted me to be more romantic or passionate I'm genuinely not sure I could change myself to do that, it would feel so forced and weird.

VinegarTrio · 27/01/2024 12:02

the thing is that ‘ultimatums’ are largely pointless. At best they are a statement of your boundaries before you leave.

By the ultimatum point all you have ascertained is that he is not the man for you. His behaviour or goals or attitudes (or all of the above) are not right for you.

Fair enough tell him why you are ending the relationship in clear, unambiguous terms. Maybe he can learn from it. But there is no point hoping someone is going to change and become a better partner.

When you’re emotionally invested and viewing it from inside a relationship, it can be hard to see how futile hoping he will change actually is. You focus on whatever positives you can and think ‘if only he would…’. So people start issuing ultimatums. But it’s pointless.

EarthSight · 27/01/2024 12:09

Truly controlling or domineering people wouldn't even ask about this - they want something, and that's all that matters. Simple. I don't think they ponder the ethics of it or if they're being fair or not on the other person. It's not usually a part of their character.

So for example, ending the relationship if they’re not engaged by X date, is that cutting your nose off to spite your face?

I don't agree with this one at all. This is a major life decision, and if the other person isn't on board, the other person has the perfect right to find someone else who does have the same goals and values as them.

If only more women did this much sooner, in their 20s, we'd have fewer sad women on here who in their mid 30s - 40s, face a single childless life. We'd also have fewer men who think they can take the piss and drag out a relationship for years whilst they wait for 'The One' to show up in their lives (who is almost always much younger, and who they marry and have babies with in quick succession, no problem).

It's not your job to teach him how to be in a relationship. In fact, I actually don't subscribe to the idea that you need several relationships under your belt to 'learn' how to be in one in a healthy way. Some people benefit from it, but some emotional character traits are genetically ingrained, so a man who is naturally inclined to be generous person will be like that no matter if he hasn't had any relationships before. If you're having issues, it might not be anything to do with the number of relationships he's had previously - it might just be who is, naturally.

I have him the benefit of the doubt many times, now ultimatums feel like I’m bullying him to do as I say or else. It’s making me uncomfortable. I ended our relationship and now I’m having second thoughts because he’s not a bad person, he just doesn’t understand women need romance, passion and attention more than once a month. It overwhelms him. I hate initiating and taking control, but it makes him feel safe

There's a difference in motivation and character between issuing ultimatums to get what you want every time, and doing so because you are desperate for things to work. It sounds to me like you're desperate.

Sometimes, a woman might end up in your situation when she is with someone very selfish, rigid and mean. Not mean as in outwardly nasty, but mean as in stingy. Mean with their time. Mean with their attention and affection. She feels ignored and not listened to.

Others end up in relationship with little boys who like to come across like they need 'help' with everything.......and the poor woman ends up turning into a 2nd mother to an adult man, or a Personal Assistant. They don't realise that their partner is doing a massive number on them.

She ends up having to beg or issue ultimatums just to be treated in a nice way, or even a normal way. Then, perversely, she thinks she's the bad person for wanting things or treatment that most emotionally healthy women would want.

There are men who just don't want or need an emotional relationship like you do. They want a kind hearted woman who will entertain them occasionally when they're bored, be a comforting presence in the background if they get a bit lonely, someone to sooth them if they're a bit anxious, make decisions for them or do relationship admin they can't be bothered to do (like organising to go on holidays or days out). They want a woman on-hand to have sex with, if they need it.

The man's ideal relationship is where they get to put their feet up on the desk, sit back and provide minimum effort & input, whilst the woman fawns and flutters around them, catering to their needs. In return, they are tossed a bone every now and again - some affection or attention when they absolutely have to provide it (such as when the woman threatens to leave).

And that's it. It's a relationship based on them taking, where the woman provides several services, but isn't truly loved and appreciated as a whole human being, and doesn't receive the same back.

Careful you don't get involved in that kind of situation and get involved with someone who is just simply hard work. They're not exactly going to have all of the above tattooed on their forehead, and they won't be honest about it because they know you'll leave if they are.

EarthSight · 27/01/2024 12:20

@148923C You're a pregnant woman in a very unhealthy, draining relationship with a horrible alcoholic. You need to start a new, separate thread on the Relationship forum on that. Although there are elements that are related to the OPs situation, your post and situation is far too long and complex to post inside this thread.

KentLife01 · 27/01/2024 13:05

I gave an ultimatum to my ex because of his insular life and drinking. For context, we were living together in a small village that literally had a post office, general store and 4 pubs. He was in the pub every night. If we went out anywhere he would always be checking his watch when he knew the pubs were soon to be opening. We'd get home, he'd ask if I minded if he went to the pub for a quick pint then would roll home hours later, carry on drinking and if we had a serious conversation about anything, he would have forgotten it the next day. I eventually gave him the ultimatum of me or the pub and basically said I'd give him a month to buck his ideas up. He did everything he possibly could to keep to it. The month went then he went straight back to his old ways. I ended it a month later. It was awful. I genuinely loved and cared about him but I couldn't live like that.

LlynTegid · 27/01/2024 16:50

If an ultimatum is a promise and you are prepared and go through with it if needed, that is very different from something which is a threat nothing else. I can think of some circumstances where it is reasonable.

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