sorry i missed the discussion - out visiting MIL for her birthday, plus i have only just finished the book. Have to say, I thought it was all a bit disjointed for my liking and I felt there were all sorts of loose ends....
still, glad i read it

Going to do that last

Night, thanks all, my first bookclub and I enjoyed it. Your comments are very insightful Tilly I shall have to put more work in next time!

Like your mix, Five Go Mad, Have you read Staying On by Paul Scott yet? That is brilliant.

Not sure why it's quite so quiet tonight (hundredtimes, boogeek, murphy'slaw: where are you?). Expect everyone is busy making spooky ghosty pillowcase outfits for Friday (at least I know I am) so I may call it an evening here. But everyone feel free to come on and put their thoughts down whenever they want.

Night all.

Kate Atkinson - Case Histories (bought before the vote) so will be able to come and chat
Paul Scott - The Towers of Silence (am slowly working my way through the Raj Quartet and loving it, my Grandfather worked for Mountbatten in India during the war)
The Mitford Sisters - everyone having raved about it on here
Attention all Shipping - ajourney around the shipping forecast - read a review about this years a go and have finally got it.
The Irrestistable Inheritance of Wilberforce - By the guy who wrote Salmon fishing in the Yemen

That's as far as I hav egot so far but off to Southampton next week so will probably come back with something

Too jealous to think about it, FiveGoMad. But go on then...What's in the suitcase?

Apparently Rivers was ahead of his time in treating shell-shock, which of course was little understood.

Putting my holiday reading list together if that will keep you going for a while

I didn't realise Rivers was a real person either, till the footnotes at the end. It must have taken a huge amount of research to get into the heads of historical people with such realism. And her style is so clear and spare. that's part of the reason I enjoyed it so much, that there's no over-writing or melodramatics.

not me, sorry had to go and sort dd out!
I only finished reading it tonight and I think I need more time to digest it, IYSWIM. I missed the parallels between the seances as well.

I also liked that line Tilly, not sure if it is part of a poem or not.

I am impressed by how much research the author must have done for these novels.

I don't watch it, was trying to find dimensions of dishwasher door to see if I can fit one in kitchen.
I've started reading Regeneration, Owen just coming into it. I hope to have more background on Prior, as to how he became an officer when he was so much of an outsider in The Ghost Road.

er, is everyone watching Spooks?

lalaa, have you read Regeneration? I loved it because of the Sassoon/Owen descriptions. I slightly wished there was more of Owen in this book.

That's a good point, about the two seances. I hadn't picked up on that at all.

I had a thought about the ghosts, that perhaps the author was pointing out that our whole society might be troubled by the ghost of this war. There's a bit where Rivers is thinking Do you believe the external demands of the ghost to be valid because if you then meet those demands, you lose the shame and sense of low self esteem that are making you mentally ill, and then you can recover.

I wonder if English society is going to be forever haunted by the soldier's ghosts who demand 'Why was it worth it? and no-one can really answer that.

My favourite line in the book is when Prior and Owen and the others are debating the reason for the war, and Owen says there is no reason, men just lost their bearings in the night. I wonder if that's in a poem somewhere or if it is the author's words?

TillyBookClub, Wow what a description: "junkie injection of gut wrenching gruesome detail". Somebody should use that in their book! Am off now to watch Spooks - up to the minute warfare - fairly mindless but so watchable. Am really glad everyone liked the book, especially poignant at this time of year.

Think all the comparisons of taboos between the societies are fascinating. And Prior's like a one-man taboo challenger. He reminds me of another book, called Her Privates We, that was banned for ages because it was too honest about the war - ie told from perspective of non-officers, lots of swearing and suppressed detail about boring, tedious, non-heroic side of war. The whole trilogy together gets my vote over Birdsong.

grandmabet, I definitely felt more hard-hit by Birdsong. I remember not being able to think about anything else for days. But with this book I enjoyed the intelligence of her debate, the ideas that came out of it, rather than the junkie injection of gut wrenching gruesome detail from Birdsong.

There is a difference in knowing so much - you do find yourself skimming over descriptions of a trench thinking 'oh yeah, mud and rats and lice and stuff, I remember'. Which feels awful.

The most striking description in this book for me was the boring yet fear filled journey of the battalion being moved to its destination, the bleary eyes as they are passed from one impersonal holding pen to another. You sensed how inhumane, how beaureaucratic and senseless the whole enterprise must have felt.

Mum2oneloudbaby, I'm glad I wasn't the only one to enjoy the jungle story - it was unfamiliar terrain, whereas WW1 stuff is very well trodden, and what more can you say about war apart from it's horrific ?

The more I think about it, the more I think the essence of the book is about stripping everything back to the primitive. That's what war is: life and death.
This is clear in Prior - his promiscuity itself is basic, animal and simmers under the surface of the order of his station in the army.

Billy did make me wonder how I might behave if I had returned from that environment, but he seems to have behaved fairly badly before he went to fight. But yes, he was likeable. I found myself disliking him when he shot the dog near the end, which seems daft when you think of all the other things he did!I think the fact that he was so intelligent perhaps made him seem less unpleasant.

agree Grandmabet, the scene after the seance was comic

I enjoyed the Melanisia episodes best, and they were all linked to the real time parts because you knew exactly what Rivers was doing as he remembered each episode and what other thoughts of his sparked it. It's interesting to compare the two seances - that everyone knew they were both all for show in both cultures, but they made the widows feel better.

I'm not sure I really liked Prior though.

Yes, Pat Barker does not seem to think much of society and the people in it. None of her characters was particularly pleasant - the mother, for example, was positively horrific, but I enjoyed the scene when they came back from the seance and hid behind the sofa - a rare bit of comic writing in a rather morbid novel.

Psychobabble, agree Prior is amazingly likeable. And original. I felt he was utterly real and yet he's one of the few properly fictional as opposed to historical characters.

What did everyone make of his promiscuity? I thought it was part of his honesty, his refusal to pretend to be civilized amidst all the horrors and pointlessness

Feeling Lucky I also enjoyed the jungle story, I found the way the tribe culture was unable to move on after the taking of heads was outlawed, to the point when a chiefs widow had to commit suicide really interesting. it seemed that although they had kidnapped the child which allowed the chiefs widow her freedom it still wasn't really satisfactory to the tribe

lemurtamer, I agree, there was a crunching gear change in my head when moving between the two areas of the book. It did make me think about relativity - that a rotting corpse can be an everyday death rite or a mind-bendingly horrific memory for example. But it did seem a bit laboured.

I think the idea of civilized society was attacked through the two stories - that there is no such thing. The primitive needs and fears are never far away.

Yes, I agree that Birdsong is much more sentimental, but in between the romance I thought the writing about WW1 was more intense and left a bigger impression. Maybe there has been too much written and acted about WW1 that I am becoming a bit punch drunk - I think if you came to this book first without knowing too much about it I can see it would be very gripping.

I did wonder if a male author would have been able to make Prior so likeable, despite his promiscuity.

I thought it was incredibly realistic, shockingly so. It has really opened my eyes to the horrors of WW1. I haven't really read anything about it since studying war poetry at school, which didn't really strike a chord with me at the time.

Oh my god, then am I the only one who was gripped by the jungle episodes and found the WW1 stuff predictable and a bit tedious?
Hadn't thought of the Power=Communication link ... it's a good one for further thought.

I saw the link as something as war = primeaval and possible even essential to our being. It's what makes us human; part of our life blood. Thus, the taking of heads is illegal, but they can;t give it up so 'reenact' it on a lesser level (ie kidnapping the little boy). And, Rivers, Owens are eager to return to France.
Does this make sense?

Loved the book, expected it to be grim, and while it was, highly readable. Now reading Regeneration now, after a short detour into WW1 poetry. Haven't read Birdsong, but is on my (endless) list.

grandma bet, I'm interested in the comaprison with Birdsong. I thought Birdsong was extremely moving but also very sentimental in parts and the romance was almost cringeworthy. It was far more soppy, which is funny considering it was written by a man. This book I found more clear-headed, realistic, clinical, which is interesting considering it was written by a woman.

I thought that the writing about the WW1 stuff was really accessible. I did Sassoon and Owen poetry for GCSE 20 years ago, and this is the first stuff I've read since then about the same era.
I found the jungle stuff less accessible and found it difficult to see the point of it. But I too read it when very tired, often a few pages at a time, so probably missed lots.

I did find the jungle parts interesting, and was always jolted when there was a move between the two. I didn't realise until the end note that Rivers was real, and apparently a book of his work came out.
One thing that struck me about the research and WW1 possible connections was the comment that the head hunting tribe were not the same once head hunting was outlawed, they just survived with no great purpose. Not that I'm making a case for WW1 or any war, but the impression you get of men who signed up the minute war was declared is that they looked forward to it, as well as it being their duty, obviously before anyone knew how prolonged the war would be.
Even once Prior and Owen knew how awful it was, they both still wanted to go back.

like you grandmabet i didn't make the connection between the two stories although i did enjoy them individually. and i thought it was maybe due to not having read the previous 2 books so thank you Tbc I may now read the other 2.

I made some connections between the jungle stuff and the WW1 stuff, but also found the WW1 stuff really gripping, and the jungle stuff a bit tedious in comparison. I read all three books, they seemed to run pretty seemlessly into one another, but the first two were much better.

Oh. have just read Tillybookclub message and that explains it all. How clever of you to see all that. But I still don't think it is a fantastic novel and very forgettable, unlike the blurb on the front cover.

I too found the ~Rivers part in some unknown country very confusing and couldn't make any connection, other than showing a different side to his character. I didn't find the book particularly riveting and thought Regeneration waz infinitely better. I also thought Sebatian Faulkes' "Birdsong" was better written. Pat Barker's latest book "Life Class" is along the same theme - I wonder if she can write about anything other than the first World War?

Evening all

I think the jungle story/war story angle is a good place to start. I agree with Carrie that it felt some Important Messages were being shouted at me and that impinged on the enjoyment. And the research was a little too close to the surface, too obvious, unlike the war story which felt utterly realistic.

The main connection I took away from the jungle/war mix was that Power = Communication and that the most powerful man in jungle society was the one who could talk to everyone, including ghosts. And that the survivors of the war/mental breakdown were powerful because they could still communicate, they talked through their fear until it receded (like the guy who saw his friends face falling off every night, and then he talked to the ghost and the face started to reassemble).

The last pages of the book brought this home, when the men in the hospital are all in unison with the dying Hallett saying Not worth it. The fact that they are all 'one single voice of pain' was what made me want to howl.

Re: the previous 2 books, I've only read Regeneration but I don't think having read this one will have spoilt it at all - it is a very different story.

The oddest thing about reading this was knowing the dates of the war ending, knowing that Wilfred Owen dies on the last day etc, yet you are still so gripped by the climax, despite there being no real surprises.

Worth reading again as will put a lot of things into perspective that you maybe questioning.

Have read this in preparation for tonight but now can't make it, due to dh booking tickets for a football match . Anyway will be really interested to hear what others think. I really enjoyed it, although find the end almost unbearably sad. Kept thinking there must be so many clever connections between the Rivers story in the jungle and the war story/ Craiglockhart and links I'm supposed to be making, but as I only ever read last thing at night when my brain is fried I don't think I really made those connections - so be interested to see if you all did. Also interesting as the Rivers/Jungle stuff was, I mostly couldn't wait to get back to the WW1 stuff. I so wanted a different ending, but guess that's what made it so moving/realistic...

Anyway looking forward to coming back to everyone's pearls of wisdom... One question for those who've read all three - is it worth me reading the previous two in the trilogy now, or will having read this spoil them?

I am going to bow out of this evenings talk, very tired and didn't get into the book at all which was weird as loved it the first time round. I think knowing it is the last in a trilogy, I need to read the other two first.

I've just been sobbing over the last few pages. Kids wondering what's happened - hard to explain WW1 to a six month old and a 2 year old.

Pat sadly not able to join us but will be great to have the whole evening to discuss freely amongst ourselves.

See everyone at 8, looking forward to this chat very much.

I've done really badly because I only bought it at the weekend because it wasn't in any Somerset libraries (obviously it's not about cider or anything)

I'm up to page 60 which I guess isn't very helpful but I will watch the discussion anyway

Ah great, I have this somewhere upstairs from my Eng Lit Uni days along with the other two, will dig it out.

Er, I mean poll page

Just to say November's Book of the Month is up for grabs, so get your voting fingers ready and storm the [[ poll page]]

thank you!

Regeneration, The Eye in the Door, The Ghost Road. You can buy it as one book, it's about 600 pages so not massive!

What are the titles of this trilogy please? I feel like a really big readie month

Now that's a good idea .. I might read all three too.

I got the book from library on Saturday and by Saturday evening I had already read Part 1. Had to stop myself reading anymore in case I forget what happens by book club night.

I'm about a quarter of the way through so I should make it!

psychobabble, I'm thinking the same thing. I've decided I'm going to read them backwards.
(not literally, of course. that would just be weird)

am new to the book club so hiya everyone!

Am half through Ghost Road it only arrived Friday and I am loving it!

I am going to join in on this one, have just got the whole trilogy from the library, am I kidding myself to think I can finish it in less than 4 weeks?!

How fabulous this should come up. I've re-read the trilogy until my eyes pop, and STILL cry at the end of "Ghost Road".

I love the rebarbative Billy Prior; shagging anything that moves but remaining a completely sympathetic character (not that I think this should be the qualifying mark of good writing).

Had the good fortune to teach "Regeneration" to Year 13 students this year, and looking forward to doing it again next year.

I'm going to re-read it: it's been a few years and I loved it first time. Hooray!

It's a fantastic book. Might be worth a re-read for this.

Oh yes, I like the whole trilogy too. The Ghost Road my favourite though.

It's a top book isn't it?

How exciting.

FMV your summer sounds emotional.

I spent a very odd summer reading Atonement, Birdsong then the Regeneration Trilogy....

Ohh, I've just re-read it!

reading the second one now

oh god, I love this book!

[cracks whip]

Such a good book.

EVERYONE must read it.

Just in case you wondered how the voting went, you can have a snoop at the results here

And, for anyone who was asleep at the back, here were the book choices

We'll be chatting about our Book of the Month, Pat Barker's Booker Prize winner THE GHOST ROAD, on Tues 28 October from 8-10pm.

Will keep you posted here about author chat - and don't forget you can order your copy here.