Thanks

[holmessweetholmes]

I am an occasional lurker on the Feminist boards. I have just had a ludicrous conversation with my mother about historical abuse. Essentially she said 'Obviously child abusers are beyond the pale, but I think lots of women are being totally feeble about stuff that was completely normal in the seventies. Grown women should have been able to defend themselves. I feel sorry for these famous people who are having their names dragged through the mud and might be innocent'.

In spite of the fact that I get on very well with her, I let rip, told her she was an appalling victim blamer and explained why women should never have had to 'defend themselves'. My ability to articulate my response is at least partly due to stuff I've read on here. So .

[Shallishanti]

what did your mum think?

[holmessweetholmes]

She totally disagreed with me. But I'm happy that I stood my ground. I find it depressing that she thinks that way. But I'm very glad that my dd will have very different views. When someone makes a remark about 'What girls are like', or girls having different abilities/interests to boys, she is genuinely . When I was younger, I probably would have agreed with some of my mother's views, which seem appalling to me now.

[CaptChaos]

Well done you!

I found the first time I was outspoken about feminism was terrifying. I do now call people out on things a lot more, and I agree that FWR has been the catalyst that has helped me to do that.

[Shallishanti]

mmm progress through the generations!
don't write your mum off though- she may yet change her mind!

[holmessweetholmes]

Thanks Capt [smile ] . I guess most of the people of my age that I know have a reasonably feminist attitude, though they don't exactly shout about it. My mother is (obviously) of a different generation. But I'm damned if I'm going to modify the truth to fit in with her prehistoric thinking.

[holmessweetholmes]

Shallishanti - I doubt it! She said 'All you needed to do was slap their hand away and say 'Get off; you dirty old bugger'.

[Shallishanti]

how old is your mum?
it's unlikely she hasn't benefited from some of the things feminists have achieved in the last 50 yrs

[holmessweetholmes]

Ah yes, but she kind of thinks that things would have been better if women had never got the vote and had stayed in the kitchen. I mentioned balance of power and she said 'But I've never wanted that power. Women don't really. Are you sure you do?'

[grimbletart]

holmessweetholmes: I guess I am of your mother's generation, maybe I am even older than her.

Let me assure you that while it was true in the 60s/70s that women could deal with creeps and perverts (we had to because no one was in our corner) it did not stop me making the point then that we shouldn't have to.

I'm not sure your mum is like that because of her age, but because there were (and still are even among younger women) women who enjoy a faux infantile role in relation to men. After all, it absolves them from the effort of being responsible for their lives. If you have no power you can't be held to account can you? Maybe your mum is one of those?

Please don't conclude all us old biddies are like that, as that would be ageism. We are, after all, the generation that got anti-discrimination and equal pay acts through in the face of much hostility.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Or she might also be a bit 'I'm all right, Jill' - she might have been able to deal with would-be abusers, but that's completely irrelevant for those who for whatever reason couldn't - vulnerable women, or those in hard-won professional positions who couldn't afford to rock the boat. I'm 53 and had a bit of that attitude when I was happily doing a PhD and had personally never suffered from discrimination. Fortunately I got a bit wiser!. Various high-achieving women suffer from this too (Thatcher was a prime example I think) - there are non-feminists at both ends of the spectrum.

[PetulaGordino]

This is not necessarily your mum Holmes, but I wonder whether for some women who were young at that time, it was so common and accepted and you didn't make a fuss that it's astonishing for them that people are so astonished now iyswim. From their POV, it was happening all the time and no one gave a shit, but all of a sudden people are all shocked (or behaving as though they are) and it's kind of "well if you'd asked me at the time I would have told you how common it was, but every

[PetulaGordino]

...one told me it was normal and to just deal with it!"

[ErrolTheDragon]

It may have been 'normal' - so was slavery once. But you wouldn't expect anyone to say well they should have just dealt with it about that. And whereas slavery was legal, (correct me if I'm wrong) the abuse for which people are being convicted now was illegal then, otherwise the cases could not be brought. So the wrongdoers knew (or should have known) that they shouldn't be doing it.

[PetulaGordino]

oh i do agree, i'm not saying it's the right reaction. what i mean is that you could take the view that given that it was a normality in so many women's lives, why are people so surprised by it now.

i'm not explaining this very well

[ErrolTheDragon]

You explained it fine. I was just continuing from there.

[holmessweetholmes]

Grimbletart - no I would never put it down to her age alone. After all, there are plenty of staunch feminists of her era. It's not as simple as an infantilised attitude in men's company either. She really thinks that women should never have been given the vote etc because 'that's why we're all in this mess' - I.e. family life isn't what it was, young people go off the rails etc etc.

[grimbletart]

Hmmm- she seems to be saying that if you give women the vote the family disintegrates. Not sure how she arrived at that non sequitur.
But then I guess logic is not your mum's strong point. Well, it wouldn't be, her being a woman an' all….

[CaptChaos]

Sorry Holmes, but I actually snorted at that. I do love people who think that family life was just a breeze and no young people ever went off the rails before pesky women got a voice and were listened to!

[holmessweetholmes]

No - logic is not her strong point! She also kind of thinks it would be better if everyone still had to go to church... although she doesn't actually believe in god. I think she just harks back to those (fictional) 'good old days' when a clip round the ear from the village bobby was enough to set a youngster on the straight and narrow etc etc. She is also vehemently anti-technology, hates driving and will not countenance having a mobile phone. At least she does not, however, share the views held by many of her generation on race or sexuality - thank goodness.