is modern marriage sexist?

[superstarheartbreaker]

Or a rimantic gesture. I cant decide. Thoughts please. I guess the vows ' live, honour and obey' have been more or less scrapped but we still have the white ( virginsl...yeah right!) Dress, dad giving dd away, woman taking the man's name plus the huge pressure that society puts on women to get hitched. Call me an old cynic!

[superstarheartbreaker]

Romantic even! Haha!

[Anniegetyourgun]

Dress colour is optional
Being given away is optional (or could be done by your mum!)
Changing name is optional
"Traditional" male/female roles also optional
Rest of society can feck off and mind their own, basically.

[Sweetmotherfudger]

Or your mum and dad both give you away?

[squizita]

Dress colour is optional
Being given away is optional (or could be done by your mum!)
Changing name is optional
"Traditional" male/female roles also optional
Rest of society can feck off and mind their own, basically.

This.
Depending on culture, beliefs etc' - many wouldn't have these anyway. I don't immediately think "C of E wedding" anyway, so culture, dress, ceremony could be anything - because all of my friends are different nationalities etc' (grew up in central London) it varies so much.

Movie weddings are stereotypical and these are the weddings 'sold' to us through marketing: real ones are entirely up to the couple bar they all have to have a witness watch them sign a bit of paper with a registrar.

[tribpot]

I wore trousers to my wedding.
No-one gave me away.
I haven't changed my name.

[Lottapianos]

If you're an old cynic superstar, then I am too! Yes all these things are optional now but I am absolutely shocked at how prevalent they still are - being 'given away', wearing white, big diamond engagement ring, changing your name. All but 3 women I have ever known have changed their name after marrying and I work in the NHS with almost all female colleagues so I know 100s of women. Most women still expect a 'proposal' rather than having a grown up discussion about making the decision togehter. Spending 20,000 (or whatever the average spend is now!) on one flaming day has become normalised.

I've even heard lots of enthusiasm from women about brides dads being asked for 'permission' by the groom

And I do agree there is still a certain amount of pressure on women to get married or at least to see it as a huge achievement rather than a private decision.

[AMumInScotland]

In the CofE service, nobody has 'given the bride away' for a long time. Father can still walk her up the aisle if they want to do that. But there are no words suggesting she belongs to her father to 'give' to anyone.

White is now supposed to signify a 'new start' rather than a virgin (but yeah, we all know it was for virginity before that...)

Man's name - optional

Pressure - well I think there's more pressure to be in a couple, and having children at a 'suitable' age than to actually get married.

[Lottapianos]

'Pressure - well I think there's more pressure to be in a couple, and having children at a 'suitable' age than to actually get married'

You do have a point there AMum, I say that as a childfree woman so speaking from experience!

But why does the bride need to be walked anywhere?! The groom can manage to get himself into the church/registry office/wherever without being led on anyone's arm.

'Man's name - optional'

Hmm, technically yes but it's still assumed by lots of people that you will be changing your name. Only if you're the bride though! And I have seen lots of women on here complain that people insist on referring to them as Mrs Hisname when they didn't change their name and wouldn't dream of doing so.

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

I guess the vows ' live, honour and obey' have been more or less scrapped but we still have the white ( virginsl...yeah right!) Dress, dad giving dd away, woman taking the man's name plus the huge pressure that society puts on women to get hitched. Call me an old cynic!

I think all of those things are sexist, yes. And I admit to having changed my name and wore white (trouser suit though!). But it is important to at least be aware and make a conscious decision in what we choose to do. To really understand our decisions.

I don't like to be unkind about other women but I really do cringe when I hear adult women talk about their weddings as thought they are planning a theme park. It's embarrassing.

I was listening to this woman (grown adult woman) talk to a friend about how she just got married and she was now planning kids...but considering how many years it took for her to plan her wedding it would probably take her a decade of planning to have children.. and she would hope she had a boy as she wouldn't want to have to spend the money on a daughter's wedding [mind boggled]

[DouweEgberts]

Yes, I think it is.

[weatherall]

I am generally anti marriage.

Generally it isn't good for women with the odd exception for non earning wives who get divorced in some circs.

From a feminist pov I find it difficult to separate the history, rape ok, being given away, dowries, loss of rights with the current legalities.

I used to want to get married. I was engaged twice before I was 21. But now I'm quite cynical about the whole thing.

[Lottapianos]

Completely agree Weatherall - that just about sums up how I feel about marriage too. DP and I have been together 9 years and are very happy - I have been tempted to suggest marriage several times but really don't think I could go through with it. Nothing at all to do with him - I would get a civil partnership like a shot.

[melissa83]

Everyone is different my personally my marriage is 100% not sexist

[ReallyFuckingFedUp]

Generally it isn't good for women with the odd exception for non earning wives who get divorced in some circs.

But do you think being married suddenly changes the nature of a relationship? If someone is in a good healthy non sexist relationship being married won't change that, and it will make it easier for many other reasons.

Equally you don't need to be married to be with an abusive twat who thinks you are there purely to give blowjobs and sandwiches.

[PetulaGordino]

DP and I have agreed that if we decide to have children we will get married first ideally. This isn't because of tradition or religion or anything, but because it protects us both financially and ties up other legal stuff that we want without having to organise separate bits of paperwork (e.g. Next of kin)

[PetulaGordino]

I do understand though not being able to get past the history surrounding marriage. It is something that bothers me too

[LittleBearPad]

Most of what you're taking about is a wedding, not marriage; very different.

[CaptChaos]

From one PoV the only reason to get married is if you have children. It protects certain legal rights for both parties.

I think civil partnerships should be available to all though to get round this. All the legal protection with none of the anti-woman baggage.

[treaclesoda]

I got married at 23. My father have never away because that was what the minister said had to be done. With hindsight, I'm not happy about that, but it's too late now. At my pre wedding rehearsal, 48 hours before the ceremony, the minister suddenly sprung it on me that I'd be expected to obey. It was only when I held firm and told him that I wouldn't be proceeding if that was the case that he agreed on different wording. But tbh, if he had insisted I probably would have gritted my teeth and said it because the alternative was having to spend 48 hours tracking down all our guests and telling them not to come, plus losing out on the money paid for the reception, and having to organise the whole thing again.

I'm in my late 30s now and still happily married. Our actual marriage has not been sexist or detrimental to me, because my husband is not sexist and I wouldn't have married him if he was. But yes, our ceremony was sexist and I find that annoying. But if I hadn't been so young I'd have had more confidence to question things.

The name thing though, I don't see that women are under much pressure to change their names these days. I changed my name because I wanted to, not because I felt it was compulsory. People do assume a name change but I think that assuming you've changed names and thinking it's wrong not to change your name are not the same thing. Most of the time (although clearly not always) if you say to someone 'actually I'm still xx xx name' they will accept that.

[treaclesoda]

Bloody autocorrect!

My father gave me away, that should say.

[TheSameBoat]

I guess a marriage is only as good as the person you're married to.

[weatherall]

Really- research shows that single women are healthier than married women.

If you read 'wifework' the author discusses how previously 'non sexist' relationships change after a wedding.

[PetulaGordino]

weatherall how does that related to women who aren't single but aren't married?

[AmberTheCat]

I've been with my dp for 22 years (how did that happen?!). We talked about marriage a bit in the early days, but could only really see the attraction as a convenience thing, and that never felt like a strong enough driver to actually do it.

I think my objection to marriage is less that it is sexist (some of the historical aspects do concern me, but I think it's possible to create a modern version of marriage) and more that promising to stay with someone for ever when half of all marriages break down (is that stat right? some high percentage, anyway) seems a bit, well, odd. When I've said that to people, the response is often 'well, what I'm doing is saying that I HOPE to be with that person for ever', but that's not what the ceremony actually says, is it?

I like to kid myself that I wake up each morning and make a conscious decision that I want to be with my dp, but given the two kids, shared mortgage and large amounts of shared crap we seem to have acquired over the years, I'm not sure how valid an argument that really is

[weatherall]

Petula- I don't know!