I need some help with this discussion please.

[Sparklysilversequins]

In a general discussion about prostitution with a male acquaintance he made these points:-

1. A positive that arises from prostitution is that there is less rape in the world.

1. He in no way agrees with forced prostitution but he has a male friend who is a prostitute as a life style choice, he makes a great deal of money and has a great lifestyle. This he says is proof that many "people" choose this as a lifestyle including women because they are "high end and doing it for a living".

1. He goes to prostitutes "a few times a year" but these women are definitely not trafficked as he can tell the difference.

I have struggled to articulate how angry these views make me so I am putting it in your hands here on MN. Can I get some thoughts please.

[ShirakawaKaede]

Sounds like he's just trying to justify it to assuage his guilt.

He can't magically tell if they're trafficked or not.

And that rubbish about prostitution being a lifestyle choice!? Does he think the majority CHOOSE to risk being raped/given an std/beaten up/murdered in order to survive? For the vast majority of people it is not a choice, and does not pay well enough to live a comfortable lifestyle.

[BrianWont]

Fucking hell - he has a very low opinion of his own sex doesn't he? To say nothing of his view of women. less rape in the world? WTF?

[PenguinsDontEatPancakes]

1. Much as I hate prostitution, men would not automatically become rapists if they didn't have access to prostitutes. Rape is not about an overwhelming urge for sexual intercourse. It is a far murkier, more violent, more power based issue than that.

1. Bollocks. A few high end prostitutes does not represent the reality for most prostitutes. He could also try reading the memoirs of some of those high end prostitutes. I can't remember the names. But they have been cited on here before and the experiences of these women are also shocking.

1. He can tell can he? Then he is delusional. And even if they aren't trafficked, it doesn't mean that they are 'happy hookers' who love their jobs.

Just for starters. TBH, I doubt I'd have had an argument. I think I would probably have got as far as "You're delusional and your behaviour repulses me" before I gave up.

[spookyspoonrulestheworld]

So is he saying he visits prostitutes to stop him raping women? Because that's what his argument alludes to him doing.

[ShirakawaKaede]

The Invisible Men Project has "punters" descriptions of the "service" they received from prostitutes. It shows the contempt that these men have and how little they think of these women as human. Would he like to be on the receiving end of someone thinking of him as these men do? Let him have a look at this:

(Massive trigger warning)

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

[BasilBabyEater]

He's telling you he's a rapist.

1. He only rapes prostitutes, because they can't be raped because they're not human like other women, they're a class apart and he has the right to rape them. If they weren't available for him to rape, he would rape other women because he's entitled to sexual access to women.

1. He chooses to focus the mythical minority of prostituted people who are having a great time because he doesn't want to acknowlege the damage he is doing by being a punter.

1. He has total contempt for women and sees them as there for his use. Society tells him that he can't use all women (as there are a class who are owned by other men and therefore untouchable by him) but there are a group who conveniently exist for his use, and he has the right to use them.

He sounds skin-crawlingly creepy.

[YoniTime]

A positive that arises from prostitution is that there is less rape in the world

I guess he thinks that rape of prostituted girls and women doesn't count. We've got obvious victims like those who have been forced into prostitution against their will, and others who do it "willingly", but because they desperately need money and would never want to be close to the guy if he give her money. That's not true consent either

[YoniTime]

*didn't give her money

[YoniTime]

And what Basil said.

[curlew]

I presume all the prostitutes he uses are doing it to fund their PhDs?

[FloraFox]

YY Basil

I was going to respond with some answers to these points but TBH I would drop the rapey fuck like a hot brick.

[BasilBabyEater]

Yep, I wouldn't be friends with a man like this.

Women don't need shit like that in their lives. You don't need it SparklySilverSequins.

[YouMakeMeWannaLaLa]

Words fail me...I'd just avoid him; you'll never get through to him (another man might) and he would probably enjoy defending himself and detailing his experiences. Yuck.

He sounds familiar...does he also enjoy joining feminist forums and C&Ping loads of irrelevant pro-prostitution propaganda....?

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Rape is not an act of a sexually starved man - it is an act of violence against women.

Going to a prostitute is not something that a man does when he wants sex - it's something he does when he wants power over a woman - he wants to pay for an experience where her consent and participation isn't actually required - he's already paid to do what he wants without any regard to her.

He is dehumanising her.

[Sparklysilversequins]

No he doesn't come on here. I am just reading all the replies. I think there's more men like this out there than we realise as I know that some of his friends feel and act the same way. We have never really discussed it on this level before. I think there's a lot of deluded men out there that actually think that each and every one of them and their use of prostitutes are a Richard Gere/Pretty Woman type scenario. They honestly don't see themselves as they really are. I find that terrifying and hopeless because how can it ever change if they are this deluded?

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Yup. Pretty Woman has a lot to answer for

[YouMakeMeWannaLaLa]

I think being shamed by another man, one they respect or look up to would at least make them think. But there are few around who a). are genuine feminists b). anti-prostitution and c). willing to speak up and risk ridicule and exclusion.

Apart from that, criminalising the punters and publicly shaming and fining them.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

Yes, I agree with lala. Sometiimes the only thing that will get through to them is another man telling them how incredibly sad it is. My dh wont come on MN (that's 'my' space) but he will genuinely speak out. The reason being that he couldn't enjoy sex with someone where the feelings aren't mutual. He couldn't get off when the fact is that a woman was with him purely because he had paid her. Mutual participation is everything to him.

[FloraFox]

Sabrina I think probably most men have this viewpoint. One of the reasons I am opposed to further decriminalisation of prostitution is that it sends the opposite message - hey guys, it's all legal and fun, no problems at all. The Swedish model on the other hand, sends a clear message - the punter is the problem and it is not socially acceptable.

Sparkly I agree with lala that this guy will probably get off on debating this with you. I think if you tell him you consider it no different to rape and you think he's disgusting, that's as far as you're likely to get.

[SabrinaMulhollandJjones]

absolutely, flora.

[middleagedwoman]

1. Rape does not decrease with prostitution. And this is no raeson anyway to support prostitution. As a friend of mine said - men should just bloody well learn to control themselves.

1. A tiny number of people in prostitution may be well paid for people using their body for sex. It is still wrong. Moreover, women in high class prostitution still get raped and beaten by punters. When they are sent to a hotel room in a posh hotel, they still never really know what they are walking into.

1. They may not be trafficked - although it is rubbish that he will be able to tell the difference. But even if they are not, he is still using vulnerable women's bodies for his own sexual satisfaction.

He is trying to justify being a punter. There is no justification.

[middleagedwoman]

Many men use women in prostitution at least once in their life. Bloody disgusting. I wouldn't want to even be friends with any man who thought that was acceptable.

[ColderThanAWitchsTitty]

well prostituion is rife and 1 out of 5 women (many of whom ARE prostitutes) are still getting raped.

He must think most men are rapist then..and we'd pretty much all be being raped by his logic otherwise right?

[Sparklysilversequins]

I gave him a synopsis of what was written here and his response was "calling someone a rapist is a terrible thing to say!"

I just said "well that's what many people, myself included think about men who use prostitutes" I do think it gave him something to think about but I think his attitudes are too deeply ingrained for there to be any real change.

[BasilBabyEater]

Oh god.

Another rapey man who thinks that telling a man he sounds like a rapist when he's saying things that make him sound like a rapist, is worse than actually being a rapist.

What a nob.