Sigh. I've been deleted and blocked by yet another feminist page on Facebook....

[AnnieLobeseder]

...for daring to disagree with them on something they've posted.

Are they really so bloody-minded that they can't handle debate on their philosophies? I realise they get a lot of nasty trolling spam, but there's a world of difference between MRA nastiness and another feminist wanting to debate feminism!!

Is it just me?

[scallopsrgreat]

Oh no Annie. That's a bit shit. Was the debate controversial or something?

[AnnieLobeseder]

They had posted some very disturbing search terms men have used to look for even more disturbing things on the internet. Fair enough, and a reasonable insight into how some men think.

But they posted that this was how ALL MEN think, that ALL MEN search for filth like that, and that any woman who thought differently was suffering from a severe case of "Not my Nigel".

So I pulled them up on it.

[AnnieLobeseder]

I just don't think that painting men to be some great evil enemy to be overcome is doing anyone any favours.

Like it or not, we are going to have to work with men to change the world. We just don't have the power to do it alone. So we have to show them that feminist philosophies are good for women and for men. That we have common ground.

Outright "revolution" by women to "overthrow" men just isn't realistic on any level.

[Eyesunderarock]

Rod Liddle is usually an arse, but in today's ST there's an article with him and Camilla Long having a dialogue. One of the points he makes about the relaunch of Spare Rib and the squabbles is
'Why should we chaps bother to try and divide and rule, when the ladies do it so thrillingly by themselves?'
Ammunition to the opposition is always a bad move, and an inability to debate reasonably does exactly that. They bring marshmallows to toast and snigger.

[TheMindBoggles]

Not my nigel i don't know why, but i really like that phrase.

[DomesticCEO]

The "all men are bastards" attitude is sadly what puts a lot of women off feminism - as a happily married woman and mother of two boys it makes me seethe that some women think this attitude is acceptable.

[TunipTheVegedude]

Which one was it?

[Lizzylou]

I agree wholeheartedly with DomesticCEO.
Good for you for defending your Nigel though op

[TunipTheVegedude]

Did they actually say 'all' men do this? Or just 'men do this' and you read it that way? Because that miscommunication happens a lot.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Wipeout Misogyny.

Looking through their page with new eyes, it is quite angry and a bit "all men are bastards". For example, they claim "you won't find sympathy for men on this page, which is focused on the harms done to women by men."

No indeed, I wouldn't expect a feminist page to be sympathetic to men. But to only focus on how men harm women? Not sure how productive that can be. They do claim to be encouraging women to be angry so they will get more pro-active about challenging the patriarchy. Any I can see some logic to that. But as I said to them, that doesn't fit in with my personal feminist philosophy.

So wish them well, but we will have to part ways.

I still think it was petty and foot-stampy to just delete and block me. If they're so sure of their position, shouldn't they be able to debate it without just making anyone who disagrees (in a non-trolly way) go away?

[AnnieLobeseder]

Tunip - to quote their comment...

"In case anyone was in any way unclear about what lurks in men?s minds and psyches, or what their precious Nigels think about and hope other men are really doing to women and children (and animals, inanimate objects and even other men) so they can find it online and wank to it?we present the proof, in the men?s own words."

Do you interpret that to mean "some men" or "pretty much all men"?

[AnnieLobeseder]

My Nigel is lovely! He's not perfect, but that's just because he's a product of the patriarchy. He's quite happy to listen to what I say about feminism and I've seen his views changing in response to discussions we've had. Not sure anyone could ask more of anyone.

[TunipTheVegedude]

I would take that to mean very significant numbers of men.
I wouldn't take it to mean 'all men' and I think it is a bit off that you said they had said all men, when they hadn't.

[yamsareyammy]

I too think women will have to work with men to change things.

[Lizzylou]

Aah, see I would take it to mean all men tbh.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Fair enough, Tunip, but I read it as that they did mean all men. So I wasn't deliberately misrepresenting what was said.

[TunipTheVegedude]

I find this really bizarre tbh.
If I say 'children throw food' or 'oh my God, kids are so noisy' no-one thinks I am denying the existence of well-behaved quiet children.

And yet people are so determined to believe that feminists think EVERY SINGLE MAN is a bastard even when that is not what they say.

Feminism is a class-based analysis. Feminists are going to talk about things done by men as a group. And yet because they don't affix the word 'some' every time they mention men, they seem to get constantly misread.

[Lizzylou]

What do you think when men do the same thing with with the word "women" though, Turnip?
If you think "Women are moody and illogical" or "Women are incapable of being funny" are ok statements (in line with your thinking below) then fair enough.
I don't like sweeping generalisations of any kind, whether it be Sex, Race or Religion.

[Eyesunderarock]

So it's an opportunity for reasoned debate, unpicking why another feminist could have misinterpreted what they wrote and explaining their rationale and thread of debate more thoroughly.
But what good does blocking and deleting do?

[DomesticCEO]

I agree with Lizzy, this wouldn't be acceptable if discussing women but ok to use it for discussing men.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Tunip, I am a feminist, so I'm not here whining that feminists are being horrid to men or that they think all men are bastards. I'm complaining about a lack of willingness to engage in debate and discussion, to explain the rationale behind viewpoints. Perhaps after some discussion I would have ended up agreeing with the page's owners. Perhaps not, but I would have learned something valuable about the beliefs of other feminists.

As it stands, like Lizzylou said, sweeping generalisations are not okay no matter who you're talking about.

One way in which minorities are kept down by their oppressors is by not being allowed to speak, to learn, to discuss. It pains me to see feminists using the tools of the oppressor to assert their own position of "being right".

[Startail]

I've been hurt, derided and put down many times in my life 90% of those ovations have been by women.

[Startail]

Occasions

[AnnieLobeseder]

Sorry startail, not sure how that is relevant.

[Eyesunderarock]

You are making perfect sense to me, Annie.