The invisible men project

(1000 Posts)
ArmyOfPenguins Mon 06-May-13 22:45:42

I think it's important that the buyers' choices in prostitution are highlighted and shared. This project was linked to on FB. Thoughts? I think it's a great idea.

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

FloraFox Sat 21-Sep-13 15:28:19

Beach the Mai report had accounts of women who were co-erced and who described how they had to pretend to punters that they were happy because otherwise men would not buy sex from them (reason 1) and because the pimps would send friends in to make sure they were doing this (reason 2). It had accounts of women coming for war zones whose family members had been killed and their lives ruined. It also had accounts of women believing their pimps were in love with them although they were beat up. Women talked about not being able to leave their abusive partners in their home countries so using prostitution to escape to another country. Despite all that, the author concludes that the main danger to women in prostitution comes from stigma. It's fucking sick.

Beachcomber Sat 21-Sep-13 15:52:28

sad Flora.

I'm glad I didn't read that one.

Perhaps wino should stop posting links to fucking grim studies in his obsessive noble effort to defend punting the right of women to be fucked by strangers for money, and answer the question we keep asking him...

What do you think of the men wino?

SabrinaMulhollandJjones Sat 21-Sep-13 16:17:46

wino, Flora quite clearly showed that that in respect of the Mai study:

The advisory board members include representatives of SohoBoyz, a body supporting male and transgender prostitutes and a sex worker / activist from the International Union of Sex Workers (which campaigns for the decriminalisation of prostitution). The research team was four members, two of whom are prostitutes and one is an activist with the IUSW.

So whilst Mai himself may not be a pro-sex industry pundit, his advisory board were. It also seems he drew some rather inexplicable conclusions with regard to the research - and if that's not bias, I don't know what is.

Beach read the police report - which was not only a tiny study, but was completely not supporting what you are trying to tell us.

The SFI report was in Danish and I can't be arsed to look back about the Australian report because you have linked to an inordinate number of studies on this thread, in your attempts to make the wimmin listen to you, and they have all, so far, either been strongly influenced by the pro-sex industry lobby. Or very badly designed studies with questionable research methods/statistics. Or aren't actually saying what you say they are saying.

FloraFox Sat 21-Sep-13 16:33:53

Oh by the way the Mai report (which acknowledged that it was not representative) counted as "not coerced" the women who got involved in prostitution through "romantic" relationships with their pimps!

WhentheRed Sat 21-Sep-13 16:46:51

The NSW report has a red umbrella on its cover - the international symbol of the pro-prostitution lobby.

The survey does not ask any questions at all about the backgrounds of the women or how they entered prostitution. It is a report on how to improve health conditions for women in prostitution in an already decriminalised environment.

Like the grim policing report, the NSW report takes a narrow view of what is a pimp (the violent, coercive, owner of a woman) rather than the legal definition of a pimp (someone who lives on the earnings). Thus, the report excludes brothel managers as pimps for the purposes of the survey.

Further, the questions are asked in a manner which may result in a more benign answer. For instance, although the survey asked whether a client had assaulted or threatened the woman, the survey did not ask whether a client had raped a woman.

Also, the survey asked whether the woman shared her income with anyone. The multiple choice answers were Partner, Flatmate, dependent child[ren], Parent[s], dependents, other (please describe). That question first suggests that "income" is net to the women, so therefore excludes the payments to the "house", manager, pimp, etc. Second, the answers also lead to a response which excludes pimps. It wasn't clear to me how the answer was used in the survey but the question and answers would obviously be useless if used in connection with pimps.

At the end of the day, the report is not evidence of anything relevant to this thread or even to the free agency, choosy-choice of women in prostitution.

Oh, and still waiting for a response about the men <pursing lips and pretending to whistle>.

CaptChaos Sat 21-Sep-13 19:14:16

Well done, wino!

More 'information' about the women's choices or lack thereof.

Now, can we get back to the point of the Invisible Men Project and talk about the men's choices?

Tell us wino, what do you think of those?

Beachcomber Sat 21-Sep-13 19:19:35

The police/pimp report also contained info on how pimps target juveniles (and 'train' them on the street before moving them indoors) by hanging around stations/care homes/night clubs.

Maybe wino would like to tell us what he thinks of those men too? And perhaps also the (unemployed) men whose partner's prostitute in order to fund their drug habits?

SinisterSal Sat 21-Sep-13 20:55:18

Funny that those men overwhelmingly choose not to suck off random men for money but send their girlfriends out to do it instead.

How many 'studies' can be c&P'd here about that choice?

FloraFox Sat 21-Sep-13 21:07:12

No doubt he'll be along with a study of 10 shepherds in Timbuktu which is evidence that just as many of them do, Sal.

SinisterSal Sat 21-Sep-13 21:16:42

Only 15 more posts to go, thank God

CaptChaos Sat 21-Sep-13 21:20:46

So...... no second thread then? lol

FloraFox Sat 21-Sep-13 21:44:12

Despite the massive derail that has consumed most of this thread, I have found it incredibly useful. The point of the IM project was to throw the light on the men and the men's choices. Those men and those choices are, as when said invisibilised when it comes to the pimp-punter lobby. The thread itself has shown this. The pro-punter types who showed up couldn't get beyond "it's not representative, not all punters are like that". Anything beyond that was switched back to the women's "choices" with some frankly grim efforts to stand up the happy hooker myth.

I'd love for Beach to start the consent thread, if you have some time. There are some really interesting aspects of that we've touched on here. Also, wino can't doesn't do analysis so we should be spared the endless c&p.

SinisterSal Sat 21-Sep-13 21:54:25

Yup

It's very illuminating that the absolute best case scenario the pimp-punters can show is still unacceptable.

minnehaha Sat 21-Sep-13 22:28:01

Firstly may I thank you sisters for deciding whether I have or have not been raped - really useful that!

Why don't you ask yourselves why it is not possible to C&P the tumblr accounts in order to verify them? Irrespective of what is claimed, I don't believe everything I read on the net....I recall one about myself - the bloke was fine (I saw him several times) but he obviously just wanted to create his own fantasy online about how things went.

You can come out with all the psycho babble and 'research' that you want to ladies, but that won't change the fact that the vast majority of clients are just ordinary guys who treat us well and without any sign of the prejudice that is displayed here.

WhentheRed Sat 21-Sep-13 23:18:51

I too have found this thread very educational and thank everyone for their contributions.

minnehaha, your post does not even make sense but feel free to continue with your insults and condescension. You have had plenty of opportunity to contribute something meaningful to the discussion but you have consistently chosen not to do so.

The "psychobabble and 'research'" we have been discussing of late was all produced by the pro-prostitution lobby.

The best that I can make from your post is you say you are a prostitute; you have had a great time in prostitution; the clients are all nice men with whom you want to have sex and with whom you choose to have sex even if they did not pay you; and you think the punternet reports are made up because the men aren't that bad. So, what about the men who rape 50% of women in street prostitution, then? A made-up statistic or an acceptable outcome?

SinisterSal Sat 21-Sep-13 23:27:47

if it works for you, fine minnehaha, but what about the people who have exactly the opposite experience? should they be disregarded, or do they even exist, would you say?

9 posts to go

FloraFox Sat 21-Sep-13 23:33:45

minnehaha are you still saying the IM reports are fake? Even the pimp lobbyists on here had to concede the extracts are genuine. Also don't forget that site is moderated. Those are the extracts that made it through. But are you also saying the ones that were not faked by IM were actually faked by the punter who wrote them? hmm

This thread is not about you, whoever you are, anonymous person sitting behind a screen. If you believe your experiences (if they are true) are experienced by every other woman in prostitution, you might want to read some of wino's studies. His studies make it very clear that they are not.

FloraFox Sat 21-Sep-13 23:42:22

The other thing minniehaha that comes out of the IM extracts is the number of times the punter says he should have said something or he would have left etc. A lot of what is described there is the punter's subjective view of the woman. How do you know these ordinary guys aren't thinking thoughts like these? Also, an earlier male poster's attitude to the reports was "what do you expect when you sell your body like a commodity?" It's the men's attitudes that are the focus here.

Beachcomber Sun 22-Sep-13 00:27:12

I'd love for Beach to start the consent thread, if you have some time. There are some really interesting aspects of that we've touched on here

Hey Flora - I will. And have been meaning to for some time. I just think that it will potentially be a thread that will involve a bit of personal investment/time, that I am totally willing to put in, but need to be a wee bit available for if I'm going to do it properly. I do really want to though.

Possibly next week, I have some time.

Other than that - thank you all for this thread. Minnie - I hope you might join us on any future threads, including a potential consent one - all perspectives welcome and useful/eye opening. I really mean that, and hope you take me at my word even if we may disagree on some things.

FloraFox Sun 22-Sep-13 00:33:58

Great Beach! I don't mean to put any pressure on you, especially as I'm not sure if I will have anything useful to contribute and may be mostly lurking with interest.

I too would like to say that I would like minniehaha to join any future threads. All perspectives are indeed useful. minnie if you feel I have been unwelcoming on this thread, it is not your perspective that is unwelcome. We have talked a lot about specific issues of proving this or that and I don't think we can put our personal experiences forward as proof of anything on an anonymous forum. I would be interested to hear your views.

Beachcomber Sun 22-Sep-13 01:56:38

No pressure AFAIC Flora smile . I really want to do the thread. I just want to do it properly and at a time that suits me IYSWIM.

FloraFox Sun 22-Sep-13 02:01:55

I said upthread that I am hesitant about surveys on either side of this argument however I just read this interesting article about surveys of prostitution:

www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/21/united-nations-prostitution-sex-trafficking

Interestingly, the article refers to a London School of Economics report last year by a development professor, Eric Neumayer who claimed that legalisation of prostitution in the Netherlands, Germany and New Zealand and the subsequent growth in demand had led to increases in human trafficking, or coercion of people into the industry.

Here is that report:

eprints.lse.ac.uk/45198/1/Neumayer_Legalized_Prostitution_Increase_2012.pdf

and here is the summary of it:

eprints.lse.ac.uk/48483/1/__libfile_REPOSITORY_Content_LSE%20British%20Politics%20and%20Policy%20Blog_2013_Jan_2013_TO_DO_blogs.lse.ac.uk-There_is_a_complex_relationship_between_legalised_prostitution_and_human_trafficking.pdf

Eric Neumayer's bio is at:

www.lse.ac.uk/researchAndExpertise/Experts/e.neumayer@lse.ac.uk

The study investigates the impact of legalized prostitution on human trafficking inflows. The study used an empirical analysis for a cross-section of up to 150 countries and showed that, on average, countries where prostitution is legal experience an increase in demand for prostitution and larger reported human trafficking inflows.

In particular, the study found that trafficking in Denmark (where prostitution is decriminalised) is four times higher than in Sweden (where purchase of sex is criminalised) even though the population of Sweden is 40% higher.

This is consistent with the accounts in the very grim article about legalisation in Germany:

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/human-trafficking-persists-despite-legality-of-prostitution-in-germany-a-902533.html

There is also a very interesting section on the difficulty finding reliable data due to the hidden nature of the population of trafficked people. The report explains how the researchers tried to address this problem.

Funny how this survey is never brought up by the survey-obsessed punter lobbyists.

FloraFox Sun 22-Sep-13 02:12:37

I should also have mentioned, that unlike the preposterous Mai report that wino mentioned above (which made a recommendation of decriminalisation based on his survey which he acknowledged was not representative and did not take into account any other harms of prostitution) Prof Neumayer acknowledges that there could be other benefits of decriminalising prostitution and that a full analysis of the costs and benefits as well as the broader merits of prohibiting prostitution is beyond the scope of his article.

wino take note - this is what rigorous academic research looks like.

WhentheRed Sun 22-Sep-13 02:30:31

Thanks FloraFox. of course, the information highlights that prostitution is demand-driven. Trafficking exists to fuel men's demands for sex and, in particular, men's demand for women of different races and sexualised racist stereotypes of those women.

Looking at trafficking also leads to attention to the men. The more we can visibilise the men, the pimps, their views, attitudes and conduct, the more we can really get to the heart of the problem.

I do wish we had heard more about the men from the pro-prostitution commenters. I really did want to see if there was a human aspect to what they do.

FloraFox Sun 22-Sep-13 02:31:39

" I really did want to see if there was a human aspect to what they do."

And therein lies the problem. There isn't.

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