Up till now I've used the term 'pro-life'....

(88 Posts)
GrimmaTheNome Thu 15-Nov-12 08:29:17

Usually in quotes...but even so...

Clearly enough in the light of the tragic case in Galway, this is an oxymoron.

I want a more accurate term - should it be 'anti-choice' or is there something better I should use?

OneMoreChap Thu 22-Nov-12 13:32:07

I thought I was agreeing with her - as in personal choice for each individual ( e.g. If you don't like women priests, don't go to their services - don't try and stop the rest of the congregation. When I was a churchgoer I opposed women clergy... Until I saw who else did. Then became pro, then became atheist FWIW)

StewieGriffinsMom Thu 22-Nov-12 08:03:39

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scottishmummy Thu 22-Nov-12 07:59:39

hate phrase prolife,no one is anti life.
the antiabortion lobby dont have moral high ground on valuing life
i value life and i value a woman right to chose her life path and how to control contraception

confuddledDOTcom Wed 21-Nov-12 11:23:17

Wow, you just agreed with me. Thanks.

OneMoreChap Wed 21-Nov-12 10:28:42

confuddledDOTcom

I believe preventing same sex marriage is no different than preventing a couple from a different faith from getting married in front of their god.

Can I fairly politely suggest that if you don't want a same sex-marriage, don't have one. Like I'd say if you don't want an abortion, don't have one.

I'd be very grateful if people with imaginary friends kept their neb out of other people's morals, and lived according to their own holy texts. Which most don't.

confuddledDOTcom Wed 21-Nov-12 09:57:23

That's different though, it is a clear right or wrong. I'm not saying laws shouldn't be written against freewill, just the whole "why is there bad in the world" thing, it's there because we all have the same freewill to choose, just some people don't choose well. Morals are when there's no clear right and wrong answer. There's no clear right and wrong answer on when life starts, on which is the right faith, decisions within a faith (why you get denominations and extremists), assisted suicide. On another thread the morality of keeping an engagement ring is in debate!

For myself I believe that life is from conception and I'm confident in my faith but believe trying to force others to live by it is as useful as telling them Father Christmas won't bring their presents if they're naughty. I believe preventing same sex marriage is no different than preventing a couple from a different faith from getting married in front of their god. I believe if you don't believe in something then don't do it - if God doesn't like it, He will deal with it but he's not best pleased with all your actions either. As a Christian my beliefs are probably quite strong on rights and wrongs, difference is I accept them as mine. But again, all of this is about living within the law.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 21-Nov-12 07:51:31

There comes a point though, at which laws have to be written - civilized society demands that a psychopath is not allowed to exercise freewill by his moral code. The knotty issues are those where society at large doesn't have a clear consensus and there are competing genuine ethical questions. The introduction of religious reasoning into such cases is usually a large part of the problem in resolving them.

confuddledDOTcom Wed 21-Nov-12 00:25:57

There are a million things that aren't right and wrong, just moral. As a Christian I don't believe other religions are right, but that's my morals, they have a right to their own morals and following them as their morals dictate. If I wish freewill then I have to accept it for others too - sadly that means a lot of bad things in the world but if I allowed freewill to be taken away from other people I'd have to be prepared for mine to go too.

GrimmaTheNome Wed 21-Nov-12 00:06:39

>Because I see it as a moral decision I don't believe it is anyone's place to dictate to anyone else.

Yes, exactly. (I think the same applies to euthanasia/assisted suicide)

confuddledDOTcom Tue 20-Nov-12 23:59:53

I've always said I'm both. I do believe in life from conception and that affects my choices for contraception (complicated when you add in that I have thrombophilia) but I believe that it's an answer that no one can definitively give which makes it a moral decision - I do think there comes a point when if the baby would survive outside it's different, so I do think there needs to be a cut off, unless it's for not compatible with life. Even amongst Christians there are those who believe that life begins at 50-something days because of a particular Bible verse. Because I see it as a moral decision I don't believe it is anyone's place to dictate to anyone else.

For myself I have taken MAP following an assault which was with the support of my pastor and church counsellor (in fact I was asked why I was bothering to ask them, just get on and take it! The counsellor put it a lot politer than our pastor and told him off). I'm not sure whether I would put my life at risk, I guess that would totally depend on the situation and whether I could get to a decent gestation - particularly as I don't do term anyway - the current case is a no brainer to me. I wouldn't for disability. I once read someone say that they knew at some point they would have to remove their child's life support, making their body the life support they removed seemed much kinder to the child - I can understand that.

Of course if abortion choice was removed we'd end up back with knitting needles and horrible concoctions.

SethStarkadder, paedophiles are people who are attracted to children, not necessarily people who abuse children, so there is certainly a distinction. Most of them actually spend their time trying not to go there, so I think it is important to make the distinction. A person can be either one without the other or can be both.

GrimmaTheNome, back in the good ol' days when women had to be fertile, miscarriage was not a good thing and of course if you were to have more than one the chances are you will keep having them and they had no way to prevent them (which reminds me, where's my needle...)

GothAnneGeddes Tue 20-Nov-12 20:08:53

I use the term "forced birther" for the reasons stated above.

What annoys me about the abortion debate, is that we're always stuck trying to defend abortion rights, when I really I think the bigger fight would be to give women much better services to reduce unwanted pregnancies, abortion is necessary, but it would great if fewer women had to have one. Likewise, I believe in subsidised childcare, etc so women have a true choice.

I'm furious at the upswing in forced birther fuckery. I drove past a clinic the other day and there were swarms of them outside angry

FastidiaBlueberry Tue 20-Nov-12 19:54:50

But they are both human lives.

Which is what the pro-forced-birthers are pretending they're all about.

SamuraiCindy Tue 20-Nov-12 19:36:20

* OneMoreChap Tue 20-Nov-12 16:28:32

Always astonishes me how many pro-lifers (particularly in the US) are also pro death penalty....*

To me, there is a world of difference in an innocent baby who has done no harm to anyone and hasn't even had a chance at living, and a brutal, sadistic killer who has caused untold devastation to families and people's lovedones.

I mainly use anti-choice, but I think forced-birthers is even more accurate. Though anti-women also fits the bill.

TeiTetua Tue 20-Nov-12 18:09:23

I would always say, "I trust women's individual consciences on this. Don't you?"

FastidiaBlueberry Tue 20-Nov-12 17:49:38

Yes I agree Mignonette I think a lot of people steer clear of discussing abortion because of the perception of it as distasteful and because so many people feel uncomfortable with it.

The danger with not engaging is that we hand the argument over to the forced-birth supporters and are forced to have it on their terms.

MrsHoarder Tue 20-Nov-12 17:36:13

I suppose "because we're a civilised first world country" is considered inflammatory too wink

mignonette Tue 20-Nov-12 17:04:57

We have to be prepared to discuss it because U.S anti abortion groups are infiltrating and funding British groups, building new campaign tactics based upon scaremongering, intimidation, harassment, the disingenuous use of dubiously acquired 'photographs' and they will use that argument over here. Whether or not we have it. They will ask why we banned death penalty but still support abortion.

mignonette Tue 20-Nov-12 17:02:06

Thank you OneMore for your points- It is hard to not get caught up in the late stage debate. Trouble is these are usually involving women having to make truly heartbreaking decisions about very serious problems concerning mother or child. It is portrayed in a very disingenuous manner by a lot of press inferring that choices to terminate are based upon easily rectified cosmetic or other foetal abnormalities. The reality is usually very different.

To add to the pain of these women and their partners/families by falsely portraying them as being irresponsible or unnecessarily using abortion is heinous.

MrsHoarder Tue 20-Nov-12 16:59:38

asking why so many pro-abortion campaigners are against the death penalty?

That one's easy: I'm in favour of minimising the damage to the lives of all the people alive now. Even murderers because there's a small probability that they are innocent. Plus I don't think the government should leglistate to control our bodies, so no preventing women from seeking an abortion and no killing people.

I don't think we need to prepare to discuss that one in the UK so much though, I thought the death penalty is a settled matter here. Can't see it being reintroduced in my lifetime easily...

OneMoreChap Tue 20-Nov-12 16:56:41

mignonette
Trouble is anti abortion campaigners would reverse that argument by asking why so many pro-abortion campaigners are against the death penalty? They see abortion as a form of state sanctioned murder.

Despite having supported Women's Right to Choose for 30+ years, I do have a little sympathy for that view as it goes later stage. All I ever did was point to the alternative.

Forcing women to lose control of their own bodily integrity and bring another potentially unwanted life into the world. Sorry, that trumps all else, I feel.

mignonette Tue 20-Nov-12 16:45:20

Trouble is anti abortion campaigners would reverse that argument by asking why so many pro-abortion campaigners are against the death penalty? They see abortion as a form of state sanctioned murder.

I'm pro abortion rights by the way. Just think that we have to have arguments prepared against these people.

GrimmaTheNome Tue 20-Nov-12 16:34:45

>Always astonishes me how many pro-lifers (particularly in the US) are also pro death penalty....
I'd like to hear how they attempt to square that circle. Or maybe they just don't. Irrational and incompatible beliefs don't seem to worry some people.

GrimmaTheNome Tue 20-Nov-12 16:31:59

Perhaps rather than 'pro/anti abortion' its more like 'pro abortion rights', 'anti abortion rights' ?

OneMoreChap Tue 20-Nov-12 16:28:32

Always astonishes me how many pro-lifers (particularly in the US) are also pro death penalty....

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