Religion is Patriarchal

[AyeRobot]

Innit?

I am struggling to come up with reasons why it isn't. Can you help?

[sunshineandbooks]

Original sin?

Nuff said.

[LineRunner]

Is the pope a woman?

[Donki]

Wicca is a religion.
Is it patriarchal.

On a more Christian front, I don't find Quakers to be patricarchal.

[PatientGriselda]

Because you can't generalise from one (or lots, sadly) to all. There are ancient cults with female deities and priestesses and so on. And although I don't know much about Wicca, it doesn't strike me as one of the male-controlled ones.

[buzzsore]

Isn't there some controversy about women being allowed to be bishops in the CofE?

[Donki]

Oops missed a ?
Is Wicca patriarchal?

[PatientGriselda]

Snap with Wicca, donki!

[sunshineandbooks]

Can we end every comment with a ?

[sunshineandbooks]

[MrsTwinks]

Define patriarchal? For that matter religion. Wicca would be a faith as it's not what i would call an organised religion as its not got a hierarchy (bishops, rabbis etc) and would it be the fabric of the beliefs or the structure of the religious hierarchy or both we are discussing?

[LineRunner]

I think with the interpretation of ancient cults and historical religion you find in it what you want to find.

That's exactly why the art and science of history, archaeology and ancient languages should be the province of men and women from all backgrounds.

The government's latest culling of 'humanities' will push these subjects back to being the playgrounds of the elite, who will write the past in their own image, as did Victorian men.

[Tyr]

Ayerobot,

I think it is fair to say that the Abrahamic religions are patriarchal. You could probably argue that, in the veneration of Mary, the RC church has to some extent accomodated the divine feminine....
The Quakers are probably the most balanced in their rejection of traditional gender roles.
You might also find the history of their offshoot, "The Shakers" interesting.
In the West, shamanism and pantheism, eg the Norse variety are neither patriarchal or matriarchal; the concepts are pretty much irrelevant.
I suspect you were referring to organised religion though?

[PatientGriselda]

Hinduism doesn't have an established hierarchy or centrally controlled doctrinal authority either, mrstwink. Do you count it as a religion or a faith? Genuinely interested.

[MrsTwinks]

My own experience is that the hierarchy of demominations linked with CofE (Methodism etc) is that the individual congregations have a large influence in the way the message is but across and like all things, the messenger has a large impact on how he interprets what s/he is relaying. The message itself is not IMO patriarchal in any sense other than it is trying to relate to the patriarchal society it was originally written/relayed from

[LineRunner]

Methodism in not 'linked' with the Church of England MrsTwinks.

[MrsTwinks]

I would say, like buddism (from my knowledge) that it's a faith. That's my own way of distinction, as a religion dictates via its structure iykwim ,whereas a faith is more fluid. Make sense? I'm not good at quantifying how my brain works sometimes

[MrsTwinks]

There is a covenant between the churches and there is a common root is all I meant by "linked"

[PatientGriselda]

The message itself is not IMO patriarchal in any sense other than it is trying to relate to the patriarchal society it was originally written/relayed from

Interestingly, the Catholic nuns who taught me at secondary level relayed the messages of te Catholic church in a way that basically made them into feminist clarion calls (deliberately). Brilliant women.

[PatientGriselda]

No I see what you mean, mrstwinks. I think it's the same as the distinction I draw between religion and organised religion. We're just calling them different things.

[AyeRobot]

Yes, I suppose I am talking about organised religion. I am inclined towards Buddhism myself, although am still astounded by the preponderance of men of the hierarchy, despite the lack of sex or gender hierarchical reference in the teaching.

Christianity and Islam are patriarchial. Is that in any doubt? I am a bit less au fait with Wiccan and its ilk, but am aware that I am conscious of a masculinity within their ranks from even my pre-feminist days. See? I wrote that last sentence and thought that it sounded aggressive, even though I am betting that the leadership was in favour of men, even if more women were allowed.

Teach me. I am asking outright, rather than veiling my question. You can decline by not posting.

[AyeRobot]

Massive xposts.

Soz

[MrsTwinks]

I was catholic educated (my dad is) and there are some brilliant quirks and inconsistencies in the teachings. I never understood anything really tbh it confused me greatly, but some of the nuns I met came across to me as greatly empowered and centred women with a great sense of self.

[MillyR]

I suppose that there are two elements to it - the spiritual dimension of it and the organised moral teaching and politics of it.

It is easier to talk about how patriarchal the morality and politics of a religion are, but a bit more difficult to work out the misogyny in the spiritual element of it.

I don't know how I feel about things like the sacred feminine, because it seems to be putting a role on to women that I'm not sure I want, and the outcome of a spiritual ideal surely has to be that we represent it some way, or it is meant to represent women. It is like this somewhat newagey 'apology to women' video. They do seem to be apologising for stuff like Science, and I kind of like Science and am not not sure I want my 'multidimensional feminine intuition' or whatever to be appreciated.

I just worry a bit that some female spirituality might actually end up being defined by, well, men I suppose.

[LineRunner]

The methodist church is separate. For a reason. And has long had women ministers.

MrsTwinks you didn't have a clue on the other thread that started this, and you don't have a clue now.

Boring, bored with you and good night.

[PatientGriselda]

I'm trying to learn too, so maybe not the best teacher, but I really likes the point about messages being relayed through and therefore coloured by the dominant society at the time. Hence traditional Christian messages and practices can be a bit (!) patriarchal, but through the prism of my killer feminist nuns, actually took on a v different hue from how they were presented by my ancient priest.