Overseas Feminists

[flyingcloud]

Sign in here!

Actually, having 'found' a few other French-based feminists on this forum since the arrest of DSK, I thought it would be good to have a place to chat and perhaps come up with ideas how to actively challenge a very deep-seated misogyny that exists in French society.

This may be end up being a series of daily rantings and ravings but at least we have a place to vent.

Of course DSK has become topic no 1 at the moment, and it raises questions on how rape and the euphemistic womanising are viewed in France.

[Bonsoir]

I agree that many aspects of French society are deeply misogynistic.

But challenge them as non-vote wielding foreigners? Tough... What I really think is needed are like-minded women who help us withstand the daily onslaught.

[flyingcloud]

Well, yes Bonsoir - that's exactly it, I don't have much of a voice here and it's a bit frustrating, but I don't actually know any like-minded women here either!

[Bonsoir]

Yes, you need other women to tell you that yes, you too lie to the paediatrician about your parenting practices .

It's also cathartic to read a lot of French tripe literature about parenting, motherhood and the role of women and to slag it off discuss it at the school gate in bookgroups.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Sounds like a good idea! I don't live in France, but my mum does and I've come across a lot of the attitudes you mention in some of her friends. I'll pop in from time to time to gather ammo to offer her....

[flyingcloud]

Hello IC ! - it's an open forum, so please feel free! Would also be interested in attitudes in Spain. Parts of southern Europe have very traditional family set-ups and are also very religious, which can all impact on the role of women in society.

[Francagoestohollywood]

Hi, I am in Italy, a country with some rather depressing statistics in terms of women's conditions. Also with substantial regional differences. Tell me if I can be of any help.

[Portofino]

I saw an advert today for a breakdown company with an attractive woman in a short frock sat on the bonnet of a car that said "Messieurs, on va s'occuper de vous (autant que votre voiture)" I was .

Shouldn't be surprised really. All the guys at work have decided that as I am English I am most interested in having endless conversations about Pippa Middleton's bottom

[blackcurrants]

... I'm in America. They are insane.
The problem is that I've been here so long I've forgotten how awful it was in England.

[blackcurrants]

Nice: breastfeeding past the age of 2 is illegal now in a Georgia town, because it's indecent. here - this country has a messed up relationship to bodies.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Ah, yes, Spain.

In some respects, very good for women - the current government has a majority female cabinet, they're being very heavy on all forms of DV, same sex marriage legalised, better rights re abortion, women here keep their surnames...

In other respects not so good. Prostitution within brothels is legal, the RC church still has a certain amount of influence and gender stereotyping can be ridiculous (baby girls have ears pierced virtually from birth, for example...our DD is earring-free so constantly being referred to as a boy...)

Women are getting much more recognition and status within business, the medical profession etc. Also, the birth rate is falling as Spanish women become more emancipated and less tied to their traditional roles.

In many ways, the country is quite progressive. However, the vast numbers of South American immigrant women don't reap those benefits anything like as much as their Spanish counterparts.

[Bonsoir]

I don't personally think societies which rely on cheap, exploited immigrant labour to mind children and clean houses are progressive or female-friendly (or child-friendly). A progressive society is, to my mind, one in which domestic/private life is valued as much as (or more than) professional/public life without recourse to slaves.

[Francagoestohollywood]

So, what do you mean?

[alexpolismum]

I totally agree with you, Bonsoir. If only things like childcare really were valued as they should be, and people did not exploit poor immigrant workers.

I think Greece has a long way to go too. Like Spain, women here keep their own surnames and are gradually achieving greater recognition in business. But societal expectations and stereotypes run deep, and the misogynist Orthodox Church is very powerful.

Women are expected to do all domestic chores, everything related to child-rearing, regardless of whether or not they are also in full-time employment. I have lost count of the number of times I have heard that I have my dh under my thumb because he does his share at home. Older women are expected to dress in black, or very dark blue at the very least. Pressure on women to conform in terms of appearance is intense.

There are also classic films from the golden era of Greek cinema which are extremely popular and also highly misogynist. I personally cannot understand their popularity, they make me want to throw things at the television. On the occasions where I have pointed out the misogyny in the film, people have been amazed I would even notice such a thing.

[Francagoestohollywood]

So what's the solution?
Of course we shouldn't exploit immigrant workers (and on the same line we should avoid buying products produced exploiting cheap workers etc, we should support the legalization of immigrants so that they can work and pay their taxes etc).
Should we demand the state to provide good quality and affordable childcare? I do for instance. Because you can value domestic/family life as much as the rest, but people still need/want to work outside the house. At least here in Italy.

[Bonsoir]

The only morally and economically viable way of affording childcare for the vast majority of working parents is group care (nurseries and crèches, or CMs). Properly paid and taxed nannies (ie one per family) are only ever going to be affordable for a very small minority.

[Francagoestohollywood]

Yes, I agree re group care. Mind you, here I also know lots of people who employ legal immigrants, with legal permanent working contracts, with benefits, pay rises, paid leave etc etc. I think that's fair.

[Bonsoir]

I know people who employ legal immigrants too. But sadly I also know many who skimp on the legalities. There are nannies at the school gate who are themselves heavily pregnant and return to work a few days post birth because they are not legal and have no social security cover. I find it absolutely amazing that rich people (as in, several large homes and a chauffeur type rich) employ people in those conditions with no qualms. Why do they have no conscience?

[Francagoestohollywood]

No idea Bonsoir. Also, not sure about France, but here in Italy it's extremely difficult to "legalise" an immigrant who doesn't come from the UE.

[Bonsoir]

Hard here, too (though not impossible). But if people refused to employ them illegally, they wouldn't come. Why are people's moral standards so lax? What sort of example do they think they are giving to their children by leaving them with undeclared immigrants? There have been some fabulously scary stories at our local park - parents left a child for the weekend while they went abroad with an undeclared nanny. When the child had an accident tree climbing and other parents called the fire brigade, the nanny ran off because she was so scared of the police.

[alexpolismum]

Group care is all very well, and I support the idea too, but it needs to be affordable, and not priced so high that people really struggle to pay it. Where I live, limited places at state nurseries are available from when a child is 3. There is a priority list and a lot of people get left off. Assuming you get a place, you still have to provide for the first 3 years, and the cost can be astronomical. I personally could not afford it. People here rely a lot on grandparents to look after their children. I know of several couples who only see their children at weekends, as the grandparents live in a village elsewhere or another town and look after the children there.

[Francagoestohollywood]

I'll be back later

[madwomanintheattic]

canada.

[InmaculadaConcepcion]

Assuming you were aiming your original point about exploitation of cheap labour by immigrant women at Spain, Bonsoir, then to some extent I agree with you. It is not a situation that could be described as "progressive", no.

To be fair to Spain, I would say the society isn't "reliant" on the immigrant women who work as cleaners and childminders - extended family (usually grandparents) and nursery care are both common over here too when it comes to childcare.

The vast majority of immigrants are legal. South American immigrants AFAIK find it easy to stay in Spain legally because of the country's ties and reciprocal agreements with its former colonies. EU immigrants likewise don't usually have any trouble. And those two groups make up the bulk of Spain's immigrant community, although there are numerous here from other parts of the world too.

For the South American and EU immigrants, they don't usually have restrictions placed on their ability to take up paid employment - it's just a matter of filling out the correct forms.

The problem lies in the fact that the majority of arrangements between South American women and their employers in the domestic sphere are usually "on the black" - as preferred by both parties. In many cases, employers of these women are very fair and the employees are generally well-treated.

Of course the problem with being "on the black" is that these women have very little say in their employment conditions and low wages and exploitation are inevitable in those circumstances by less scrupulous families.

But the very existence of these women and their circumstances in Spain is already leading to change. The government's drive against DV, for example, was largely motivated by the fact that it is so prevalent within the South American immigrant community. Also, numerous schemes and initiatives of all types exist and are constantly being set up to encourage immigrant women to build their confidence and participate in Spanish society from a stronger standpoint.

The government has a strong motivation there - it knows how much taxation money it's losing because of the black economy, so it's very much within its interests to try to do something about it. And interestingly, its offering a lot of carrots, not just wielding a big stick.

There's still a lot of work to be done, though.

(Ahem, that was a monster post - Bonsoir really got me thinking about it - thanks! )

[HopeForTheBest]

Report on German radio today mentioned that the stats for women qualifying as professors had gone up in the state of Baden Wurttemberg and is now 1 in 4, which is an increase of 5% compared to last year.

Um. Not sure if this is at all relevant. Maybe a step in the right direction?

[TheBride]

I live in HK where group childcare is almost non-existant. It's all 'helpers', most of whom come from the Philippines or Indonesia (although there is talk of allowing mainland Chinese residents to come to HK as helpers). Helpers are mostly in HK legally - there's a whole visa/salary system aimed directly at them so there's no real incentive not to go through this system. Minimum wage is set by their Consulate. Their right to remain in HK is tied to their job, but that's no different from the vast majority of other non-HK residents.

The wages are low by HK stds, but to put it in perspective, a Filipana helper on min wage in HK earns more than a doctor in Manila, so the spending power of the money these women return to their families is significant- they don't have significant costs in HK because they live in and the employer must provide food and other basics. If you compare a minimum waged HK salary adjusted for accommodation and food vs. a helper salary, there's not much difference.

Problems

• Min wage not always abided by (maybe 10%) and difficult to enforce unless the helper complains (and can prove it)
  
• Some abuse of helpers in terms of hours worked/rest periods/privacy etc
  
• Some helpers spend most of their adult lives away from their own families