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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

I'm disassociating from 'radical'

230 replies

garlicbutter · 27/04/2011 01:20

Not really expecting anything here (though this board often surprises me!) but I woke up with a fierce urge to write this post, so may as well go with it.

Self-declared radical feminists used to scare me - and piss me off. They were the ones who sneered at my friends & me for wearing fashionable clothes and makeup. Most of them seemed a hell of a lot quicker to anger than to rational debate. I wasn't that bothered - I was doing plenty for feminist causes, makeup notwithstanding. I just didn't call myself "radical".

A few decades along, I noticed everyone was saying "I'm not a feminist but ..." all over again. There was stuff going on in the media that I considered retrograde for women, and some spokeswomen seemed to be touting pornification and surrender as feminist values. By contemporary standards, it seemed, I was radical!

So I did a bit of reading, and asked on here, and it turns out I'm a rad fem. But it rankles. This is why: Either you're a feminist or you aren't. Either you strive for real gender equality or you don't. There's no need for the 'radical', it's a tautology.

The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect. Unless we are teenagers, we should have grown up by now and reached out to the world we live in (and wish to change.)

So I'm a feminist, no adjectives required.

This isn't meant as a challenge or anything, but I wanted to post it since so many visitors come away from this board scratching their heads about radical feminism. I'm not saying I know a whole lot about it - I've not studied Feminst Theory or sociology - but I am a long-time feminist activist. Here's my take on it.

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DontdoitKatie · 27/04/2011 08:48

What's radical about women calling themselves sluts? What's radical about wanting to have a word for people who have lots of sexual partners?

Radical means going to the root, in feminism's terms it means going to the root of patriarchy - male violence in particular sexual violence against women. That's how women are kept in second place and it's what we need to challenge. A group of women marching through the streets going "we're sluts" changes nothing. Do you know what the sexists' response will be - "yes you are". Vile but true. Why give woman-haters ammunition?

Radical feminists want to dismantle the whole patriarchal system because it is imbued with sexism and misogyny right the way through it, it's built on it. Liberal feminists want to reform it, and sex positive feminists think they can fuck their way to freedom.

I think it is supposed to be a challenge. We disagreed on a thread and I stated I was a radical feminist. Nobody had been talking about it before. Now this.

You also seem quite familiar (I'm usually dittany BTW)

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PrinceHumperdink · 27/04/2011 08:54

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DontdoitKatie · 27/04/2011 09:28

"The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect."

This is very insulting. :)

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celadon · 27/04/2011 09:31

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InmaculadaConcepcion · 27/04/2011 09:47

Isn't the need to categorise and label everything an attempt to gain control? And also to separate out certain beliefs when in fact, in many individuals, those beliefs may overlap or not quite fit into their prescribed box?
I see it as a vaguely patriarchal approach - very linear, potentially hierarchical.

On the one hand, it helps to have labels on different "styles" of feminism to distinguish those views within the broader "feminism" category, if you like.

On the other, is it really that simple?

I'm intrigued.

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Prolesworth · 27/04/2011 09:53

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Prolesworth · 27/04/2011 10:02

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DontdoitKatie · 27/04/2011 10:04

I don't think its' patriarchal to accurately describe what you're doing and arguing. Political analysis is very important, particularly to women, who are not supposed to think in those kind of terms or be politically aware, Immaculada.

There is a massive divide for example between feminists who think that prostitution and pornography are empowering for women and those who think that they are male supremacist institutions designed to oppress women. The schools of thought do divide up fairly clearly.

Prolesworth, when I became a radical femnist I had the same view - radical feminist arguments make the most sense and most accurately reflect reality.

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garlicbutter · 27/04/2011 10:20

Katie, I did recognise your style :) I'm disappointed that you still perceive attempts to discuss your views from another perspective as personal attacks to you. It really isn't all about you, except in as much as you hold some rigid views, which differ from my own, and I sometimes question them. That's not the same as a personal attack.

Prolesworth, I don't disagree with anything you've written - except that I also agree with IC, the categorisation and labelling seems vaguely patriarchal!

If 'divide and conquer' is an effective means of weakening a movement, it looks as if feminism is doing a grand job all by itself. Still, if we must have labels ... I hereby stand as a "makeup-wearing, word-reclaiming, feminist old bag" Grin
Apply here for your badges and flattering t-shirt!

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DontdoitKatie · 27/04/2011 10:25

Do I know you then GB?

This is a personal attack on anybody calling themselves a radical feminist:

"The radical thing is also beginning to strike me as a sorority (not a sisterhood). It feels like the kind of society that's good for teenagers: an us-against-the-world, nobody-truly-understands, same-thinking, catchphrase-sharing, sycophantic sect."

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PrinceHumperdink · 27/04/2011 10:30

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DontdoitKatie · 27/04/2011 10:33

Without radical feminism there would be:

no analysis of male violence against women
no domestic violence shelters
no rape crisis
no anti-porn movement that came from a woman-centred perspective
no sexual harassment laws
no recognition of genocidal rape as a war crime
no Coalition Against Trafficking in women
no feminist analysis of the sex industry which takes a woman-centred approach

and, with regards to radical feminists themselves
no Andrea Dworkin
no Kate Millet
no Audre Lorde
no Mary Daly
no Sheila Jeffreys
no Catharine MacKinnon

Radical feminism is a theoretically consistent politics, based on women's real lives and experiences. If you want to reduce that down to a "sychopantic sect" then that's up to you, but I'd call that sort of dismissal of an extraordinary movement that has made so much difference to women's lives - sexist.

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garlicbutter · 27/04/2011 10:35

So what's un-radical feminism? Confused My original point was that feminism is, by its nature, radical. Tautology.

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PrinceHumperdink · 27/04/2011 10:37

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AliceWorld · 27/04/2011 10:38

Liberal, socialist, anarcho for starters...

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garlicbutter · 27/04/2011 10:45

Thanks, PH ... maybe I'm more "liberal", so. However I shall stick with "A Feminist" which is still, I think, enough of a challenge to the patriarchy as we know it.

I want to be able to absorb ideas from all sorts of other feminists, consider them critically and express them in ways I think might work. Much harder to do that with a label hemming me in.

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AliceWorld · 27/04/2011 10:46

If you don't like the categories, you don't have to engage with them. I am left wing. Whether I am socialist, communist, trotskyist, marxist, marxist-leninist, anarcho-socialist, anarcho-syndicalist etc etc I don't really care. But they still exist. They are different types of left wing. They exist. They can be discussed. No skin of my nose. Good thing someone is doing so. They don't carry personal characteristics. They are theories. Just like types of feminism. A rad fem is not a characteristic, it is someone who believes stuff categorised as rad fem and is right

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DontdoitKatie · 27/04/2011 10:49

Are you going to apologise for your insults about radical feminism GB?

You also haven't said if I'm right that I recognise you.

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Bennifer · 27/04/2011 10:56

Isn't the link with radical feminism and feminism the same between the link between that exists between any two position

One might consider the demand for absolute parity in the make up of certain professions such as engineering or politics (or the number of prisoners) a radical position, whereas some feminists might concede that there are natural differences that mean not all women want to be engineers (or go to prison), but should have the choice if they so desire.

Equally radical might refer to the methods. It was the violent tactics of the radical feminists that gained women the vote in this country, whereas less radical feminists might have been anti-violence.

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DontdoitKatie · 27/04/2011 11:03

Radical, in radical feminism, means going to the root. It doesnt mean extreme, although women who stand up to male violence against women and point it out are often called extremists.

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garlicbutter · 27/04/2011 11:17

I dunno. Isn't Nicola Horlick's stance on women directors (forced parity) "radical" by such markers? Yet she was much criticised, here and elsewhere, for reportedly prefacing her statement with "I'm not a feminist but". Iirc (possibly not), she was criticised for a lot else, too. Personally I welcome Horlick's pro-active position and don't care what she calls herself: she's willing to put her weight behind boardroom parity for women.

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YouMustBeYolking · 27/04/2011 11:28

I tend to think I am a radical feminist, however, when I discuss this with friends and colleagues I simply use feminist. When I have used the term radical it seems to trigger a negative response to feminism.

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AnnieLobePassoverSeder · 27/04/2011 11:32

Why on earth should GB apologise for having an opinion that differs from yours, Katie?

For what it's worth, I agree to a fair degree about the sorority analogy.

I think perhaps some people mix up Radical Feminism with feminist extremists who do come across as man-hating, SAHM-hating, are very intimidating and IMHO do nothing for the feminist cause but alienate more 'normal' women.

I was going to post later on about where the Feminist forum on MN is going wrong, since so many MNers think it's rude, cliquey, scary and intimidating. Sometimes I agree but I have the hide of a rhino and am becoming ever more confident in myself as a feminist so I plough on regardless.

However, the fact remains that we're scaring women away from engaging in meaningful debate on feminism. Surely we should be trying to rectify this? Slightly off-topic I know.

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InmaculadaConcepcion · 27/04/2011 11:33

I agree DDIK that political analysis and political awareness is important for feminists - and indeed, women in general.

Given the strength of feeling on the different issues that divide feminists into the categories described above, do you think their existence harms the movement as a whole? How fundamental are these divisions? Are they too easily exploited by those who seek to denigrate feminism?

(The "you" is you plural - I'm interested in everyone's views on this!)

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WhiteBumOfTheMountain · 27/04/2011 11:36

It's all very confusing for a woman like me...who for many years actively avoided the term Feminist...all the time reading feminist plays and novels and relating to them massively.

I just didn't want to be associated with something which seemed unreasonable sometimes.

Since joining MN in Octobr last year, I have been educated by the Feminists here and now call myself a Feminst....but I keep coming up against veiws which irritate me...and which I think set the whole movement back in terms of younger women embracing it as a whole and adopting the title of feminist.

I don't feel qualified to argue my thoughts...because I am often shouted down...that's not good. I keep coming back though...and reading, I find many arguments spiral into irritating micro-rows...where every word, point and and opinion is put under the microscope.

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