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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Nail varnish on little boys

27 replies

notanumber · 20/04/2011 14:26

This is hugely trivial, but wondered what you thought.

I slapped some nail varnish on my gnarled old hooves yesterday as the glorious weather meant that I could no longer hide my podiatry shame in boots. DS (3) doodled up and demanded paint on his nails too. He likes paint, and I was irked by the notion that something fun would be forbidden to him because it's 'only for girls'. I slicked some glittery purple varnish on his toes, he was pleased.

When DH came home he raised eyebrows at DS' feet. He asked me whether I would have put nail varnish on a three year old DD.

I had to admit that no, I wouldn't. I get all judgy and cringy when I see little girls wearing make up (including nail varnish) on the grounds that little girls should be jumping and playing not smeared in make up being a 'princess' etc.....

DH said that in Sexist Top Trumps?, surely the principle that little children shouldn't be getting tarted up with adult goo is more important than the principle that there is no such thing as 'boys' and 'girls' toys/colours/activities.

He's probably right. And there was me being all smug about not submitting to gender 'rules' for my little boy and giving him freedom of expression etc.

Yet another Feminism Fail. I'm really sucky at this - I hope I get better at it soon Grin

OP posts:
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ayeayecapn · 20/04/2011 14:32

Am amused by this as I did exactly the same with my 3 year old son last week, he loved it and I didn't mind, but then I felt guilty as I had friends staying with us who said to their daughter's that they weren't allowed any makeup including nail varnish for many years yet. He's still wearing it though, but I probably won't do it again!

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iskra · 20/04/2011 14:38

Have you seen all the "furore' over a J Crew ad with a small boy with pink nail varnish in the States? Running out of naptime, can't find link for you!

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AliceWorld · 20/04/2011 15:26

Not a feminist fail at all Grin They are different things. Putting nail varnish on a boy is subverting gender norms, putting it on a girl is perpetuating them.

Feminist top trumps (now that I would buy) would need to be gender specific. Frequently gender is obscured in these kinds of things, for example that channel 4 'stop pimping our kids' programme. Did you see any clothes pimping boys? Any miniature posing punches? Of course not. It should have been 'stop pimping our girls', but of course then they would have to admit it's sexism. Or the nonsensical ruling that the female countryfile presented was discriminated against on the grounds of age rather than gender, even though John Craven strangely wasn't.

Girls shouldn't be 'tarted up with adult goo' because of the links to expectations of women. They don't exist for men, so it is different.

Permission to feel smug again! Grin

(Not that I would like to try and explain that were there a boy and girl stood in front of me both wanting adult goo)

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stillstanding · 20/04/2011 15:34

My mum always has beautiful nails and it has become a semi-tradition type thing to sit on her bed with her granddaughters (just as me and my sisters did as children) and for her to paint their nails too. DS (first grandson) was old enough to join in this Christmas and had a fabulous time - different colours on all fingers and toes! Would have been outrageous for me to deny him because he is a boy.

BUT that said I do hate nail polish (or make up) on small children and so the rule is (for girls and boys) that it all comes off at bathtime. I love AliceWorld's machinations to get this to being ok and am just about convinced but ultimately think "one rule for all" is the only way forward and they can be no justifying it for boys and not for girls.

Little dressing up treats for everyone lovely but no discrimination, I say.

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tortilla · 20/04/2011 15:41

I think I side with your DH but it's an interesting question. With a DD I'd be trying to protect her from societal expectations about how she should be by not letting her wear it at such a young age; with DS I would be trying to protect him from societal expectations about how he should be by letting him wear it, so age sort of doesn't come into it. But I couldn't let my DS wear it at 3 and hold back for DD until she was say 12 as that would seem grossly unfair somehow. I don't like the idea of make up on children, so if he asked I'd probably say 'you're too young but you can wear it when you are older' rather than 'you can't wear it because you're a boy'. The former doesn't make any judgment about whether he can wear make up, it just says he is too beautiful and young to need it yet and you can then use that line with a DD too and you're being consistent and fair :)

Where it gets tricky for me is that I happily let my 3yo DS wear my necklaces and bracelets and hair clips and high heels, but those are as much 'adornments' as make up is, so not sure why make up seems worse...

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tortilla · 20/04/2011 15:43

But I'd let DD wear my bracletes and necklaces at 3 too, so still being fair and consistent about that, just now wondering why they seem more benign to me than make up when they are actually performing the same function!!!

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AliceWorld · 20/04/2011 15:49

Just to clarify I personally wouldn't want boys or girls to wear it, but was just explaining where the difference lay from a feminist perspective.

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stillstanding · 20/04/2011 15:50

And very clever explanation it was too, Alice!

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madwomanintheattic · 20/04/2011 17:37

ds still gets his toes painted sometimes. he's 9. Grin

but i am now in a total dither re the girls. hitherto we have adhered to the bathtime rule as well (should add i don't wear polish - i put it on my toes about twice a year if i have to wear sandals, but i'm toenail phobic - yuk, can't bear them. bugger all to do with feminism. tis camouflage - either shoes or colour, usually shoes). mmmm. and i only really let them in the hols...

have been pondering a lot about make up lately. don't wear it myself at all (might for a wedding, but have also been without) but have spent literally bleeding hours trowelling make up onto a 7yo and an 11yo for dance. (tis stage make-up and all tied in to their costume, or to enhance features so they are seen from the audience blah). have also been putting a little on ds for the same reasons (enhance features for stage). but i'm starting to flap a bit about the messages it's sending... and that i'm sending, lol. as i'm the one trowelling it on. (just them, not me...)

is the fact that i don't wear any, at all, enough to counteract the 'normality' of putting a face on for a particular performance? and thinking longer term performance

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TeiTetua · 20/04/2011 19:56

Subverting gender norms with a small child at home is fine, but what if he wants to go out with a dress/makeup/jewellery on? If it were a girl, lots of parents would say that's OK if you want to (maybe not the cosmetics) but what if you could expect people to look at him funny, and you too? A point comes when most of us would say no, you can't do that in public. Do we say, "It's wrong, you should be able to look however you want to?"

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IngridBergman · 20/04/2011 20:01

I don't get what is wrong with putting nail varnish on anyone who fancies it tbh.

It's a massive non issue, if they like it then do it/ I can't imagine saying 'no sorry that's not very feminist, so I can't do that for you dear' whatever gender my child was.

Huge difference to encouraging a child to wear sexually revealing or suggestive clothes, or piercing a baby's ears when it clearly can't ask for this to be done.

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WorzselMummage · 20/04/2011 20:05

My 2.5 year old DS currently has hot pink toe nails along with me and my 6.5 year old DD.

It's not subverting or perpetuating anything, it's just making a toddler happy.

If he wants to wear hot pink on his toes when he's 2, 12 or 22 he can with my blessing.

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ValiumBandwitch · 20/04/2011 20:08

I bet I have the oldest son who wears nail varnish! he is five and wears a bit of nail varnish if he wants to. He also carries a pink bag around with him. I don't care. It's not a big deal to him. Makes me relieved there's no dinosaur of a father around to make a big deal out of nothing. Being a single parent is easier some times.

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IngridBergman · 20/04/2011 20:09

Yes exactly. we are the ones who have a problem with it (well I don't) not our children. Why spoil it for them?

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WorzselMummage · 20/04/2011 20:11

Not all men are dinosaurs!

My DH hast even raised an eyebrow about ds's pink toes and my Dad and Brother thought they were great.

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IngridBergman · 20/04/2011 20:11

and how many of us would prevent a small girl from wearing pink dresses if she wanted to?

Or small boys. Mine have both had fun with pink...ds1 in a small tutu which was mine when I was 5, and ds2 just in general is very fond of pink. I wouldn't stop a girl or a boy from wearing it.

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ValiumBandwitch · 20/04/2011 20:14

no of course not all, but it always seems to be the dads who have palpitations when their sons wear nail varnishs.

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madwomanintheattic · 20/04/2011 21:10

valium - nope, as above, my ds is 9. Grin he's grown out of the barbie shoes, but still puts his sister's leotard and tights on though.

teitua - i think that's come up a few times. there was a blog post linked to on here where a mum was talking about her ds wanting to go to book day as a female character, i think. it all got a bit complicated as she sort of forced him to go in the end, even though he changed his mind at the last minute, and the kids at school basically bullied him all day. bit sad.

of course, we should all be able to wear what we like, when we like. but there's an age when you can make a conscious decision for yourself whther you can put up with/ attract comment or worse. little ones can get away with it. at 9, if ds wore nail varnish or a skirt to school, i can imagine it would get very tricky. he's old enough to understand peer pressure, but not old enough to deliberately make the choice to stand up for himself against it yet. not for something like that, anyway. well, he's old enough to understand what the unwritten gender 'rules' are. if he decides to subvert them then he'll get my support. i'm not encouraging him to make those choices though, not at 9. it's enough that he understands that it's a choice to follow the 'rules'. and so far he's deciding to follow them. at school anyway.

still wears nail varnish at home where he knows he's not going to get thumped or called gay because of it.

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SkinittingFluffyBunnyBonnets · 22/04/2011 23:02

I let my DDS wear nail varnish..they like pink, bue...all colours....I think they see it in the same light as tattoos....self adornment.They admire all kinds of body art...and all kindsof people...luckily they are also exposed to a few little boys who like a good manicure too!

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SpringchickenGoldBrass · 22/04/2011 23:09

My DS sometimes wears nail varnish ie wants me to paint his nails if I am painting my own. The only time I refused to paint his fingernails (and did his toes instead) was for my brother's wedding because I didn't want DS (who was then 5) getting teased or indeed patronized by the more tradtional and less tactful members of my family.
But then I am a child of the 70s/80s and therefore used to men and women using make up and performance, special treat decoration and self-expression, and nail varnish, particularly in the lurid blues and purples that both DS & I favour, is fine.

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sakura · 23/04/2011 09:21

I remember forcing my little brother to have a full-on makeover . Took pictures of him and everything, poor lad.
It is men who have more of problem with gender bending than women.
Some of them even get it into their heads that their son is a girl if he likes pink Hmm

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sakura · 23/04/2011 09:25

I just remembered that today DS used a permanent brown marker all over his forehead, cheeks and mouth this morning. I don't know if you know but if a child with brown marker all over his face gets put in the bath and you try to wash it off it actually turns pink. ANd then stays there.
So I have been out and about today with a child with pink scribbles all over his head.

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TimeWasting · 24/04/2011 10:10

I don't class nail varnish as make-up. It's more an accessory.
DH wears it more regularly than I do anyway, so I don't even consider it a gender thing.

Having long fingernails is a 'feminine' thing though I think, as it acts as an impediment to normal living.

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MoChan · 25/04/2011 07:55

I have never classed nail varnish as make-up, either. I wear primary colours - blue and green and yellow - and have always seen it as more of an expression of my creative side than an exhibition of femininity. Obviously, I've probably deluded myself because of a subconscious wish to collude with the patriarchy and compete with other women. And that idea FILLS ME WITH RAGE.

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EveWasFramed72 · 25/04/2011 10:04

My 3 year old DD loves nail varnish, but so does 4 year old DS, so they get tarted up together. I don't worry too much about either of them, to be honest, I don't make a huge deal out of it, and both children just regard it as dressing up, which is how we play it. I also loved that when DS went to school with silver painted nails, he actually stood up for himself very successfully when a boy in his Reception class made fun of him.

I hope nail polish is not a feminist issue!! Grin

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