Women arrested for wearing burqas in France... what do you think?

[steamedtreaclesponge]

Here

I'm not really sure what I think about all this. On the one hand the veil is used as a tool of oppression in many countries, and I'm generally against it on the grounds that if men can't control their lust at seeing women's faces, they should stay inside, rather than making women cover up.

But then, it doesn't sit right with me that women who wear it out of choice are being arrested. Or is it comparable to the choice to become a stripper, in that it may be an OK and not-so-harmful choice to make for the person doing it, but is something that harms other women by encouraging anti-feminist or mysogynistic attitudes?

I'd welcome some more informed views on this...

[BleachedWhale]

This was bound to happen as people, understandably, react to being told by the government what they may or may do with a bit of cloth.

The police should give protection to women being forced to cover their heads, or any other form of opression, against their free will, but it is an abuse of government power to tel woemn what they may or may not do when it is of no direct harm to any other person.

The whole point of being in the free West, rather than an Islamic dictatorship, is to use your free will insofar as it does not harm someone else.

Draping a Darth Vader outfit over your head hardly harms anyone else.

[BleachedWhale]

And this law has given men (if the majority of gendarmes in France are men) another function in the humiliation and criminalisation of women.

[Portofino]

The were arrested for taking part in an unauthorised protest NOT for wearing veils. That "crime" comes with a fixed cash penalty and a citizenship class People who force women to wear veils can be imprisoned.

[frantic51]

I think, live and let live. If women want to cover themselves, then it should be their choice. However, in situations where it can impact on safety, such as border controls, the country in question should have to power to insist that burqas (sp?) are removed. Anyone, male or female could hide behind them. Not sure how I can justify this stance though, seems to infringe personal liberty/national security whichever way I look at it!

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

I am also torn about this. The main part of my brain is saying, fucking-A, another way for men to police (literally in this case) women's clothes :(

When will women's clothing become no-one else's business but their own, for god's sake? There's MASSIVE focus on our clothing, and next to none on men's - why is that? Obviously because we are the sex class and our bodies are public property, so everyone should have a say.

[stripeywoollenhat]

trying to deal with a bad idea by coming up with a worse one, that's what this is. because even if i think that the choice to completely efface yourself to the point of covering everything including your face is as clear as, at minimum, internalised misogyny can get, being forced by the security forces in your state to uncover yourself against your will seems even worse. and it won't contribute in anyway to a loosening of the strictures within which such women may be living, it'll just basically create an unofficial state of house arrest for them...

[Goblinchild]

If a woman is wearing a burqa, how can you know if it is by choice or not?

[fluffyanimal]

What Stripey said.

[aliceliddell]

oh yes, stripey! But what should we actually do? I like the idea (only mine, so far) of men going to France specifically to wear niqabs in public to draw attention to basic fuckwittedness. Prob need 2 campaigns, 1 v misogyny, 2 v state sponsored veil-control??

[expatinscotland]

I think as it's a democracy and this ban was voted in by a majority of voters/representatives, that I don't much care.

[mackerel]

I disagee witht he stance France has taken. There might now be lots of women who can't / don't feel able to go out at all because their burqas are illegal and are therefore further removed from society and isolated in their homes.

[bemybebe]

I think the French using a very blunt instrument to solve a very real problem. I have no idea what should be done instead, but doing nothing in the current climate is also not an option.

Multiculturalism, unfortunately, has failed.

[alexpolismum]

I am going to go against the popular tide here and say that I think wearing the burqua is harmful to women as a whole. I think that (as the OP suggested) it encourages misogyny, by making it publicly acceptable to efface a woman's identity, by making her faceless, and for her husband's view only, as though she belonged to him. Some women may indeed choose it, but I believe they are affecting women as a whole. No one exists in a vacuum. Their choices affect society's attitude towards women.

[alexpolismum]

bemybebe - re multiculturalism - I believe that multiculturalism works when the people coming in to a host culture are of a similar religious background. Poles/Greeks coming into the UK, for example, who are mostly from a Christian background, albeit different branches, are generally assimilated more easily. (I am not saying this is right or wrong, just commenting that this is the way it seems to be). People seem to distrust those who come from a different religious background, perhaps through a lack of understanding, or because they feel threatened by the new religion.

[BleachedWhale]

I think celebrities talking about their Brazilians, Hollywoods and boob jobs are 'harmful to women as a whole' but would march inthe streets to protect thier right to rip out their pubic hair if they so wish.

Women as a whole have enough gumption to make their own choice as long as no-one is co-ercing or threatening them. Paternalistic law is oppressive.

[alexpolismum]

Yes, I agree, Bleached Whale, those things are also harmful to women as a whole. But I disagree about having the gumption to make their own choice - their is such a thing as peer/ societal pressure, not to mention propaganda, that essentially makes real choice near impossible

[alexpolismum]

there is, not their!

[EverSoLagom]

I'm going to de-lurk as a tentative feminist, please go easy on me...

I think I also agree with alexpolismum and the OP that the wearing of the burqa is harmful to the feminist cause as a whole.

However, reading the Guardian article posted by computermouse above, I was struck by the last sentence. It's pretty trite and actually quite horrible in terms of its language...

""If women want to walk around half-naked I don't object to them doing so. If they want to wear tight jeans where you can see their underwear or walk around with their breasts hanging out, I don't give a damn. But if they are allowed to do that, why should I not be allowed to cover up?"

It did make me think: well, as far as harming women goes, walking around dressed as some kind of male fantasy is possibly as bad as wearing a burqa and essentially becoming "faceless" as alex said.

But we would never agree to police the wearing of (eg) high heels or fetish-type clothing on the grounds that they are a patriarchal construct and thereby damage women (whether or not woman has actually chosen to wear them without direct pressure from a man). That would be an intolerable use of state/male power. So i don't think from a feminist view point we can accept the enforced banning of burqas either.

[slhilly]

bemybebe, I'd be interested to know what you think the "very real problem" is that's being solved?

alexispolismum - I agree. But I don't think that everything that I think is harmful to women as a whole should be banned by the state. Nor, indeed, everything that I think is harmful to people as a whole.