Make up. Image & Feminism

[amiheartless]

hi all, After coming out of lurkdom i'm gonna throw this subject out there because it has bothered me alot and led me for many years to dislike Feminism.

When I was a teen in school, there were 'feminists' in my class (as much as you can be at 17) and I was blonde,larger chested and wore alot of make up, and spoke about once how I would consider CS for self esteem issues (I was shot in the nose at 14) I was berating for being 'a disgrace to womanhood' and when recieving good marks appeared [shocked] I could be clever.
It did disconcert me that women who rather looked like men were telling how to dress etc,is that meant to be liberating?
How does that break down misgonginy??
It wasnt the only time.I know now being on here real feminism does not promote that.berating people I mean.
Has anyone ever experienced that?

How do you think we can stop this distorted viewpoint putting people of the values of feminism?

Hve you ever felt this view of 'made up' women , be honest?/

[Tortington]

i think that people must break the feminist dungaree myth if you want feminism to be current and mainstreamly available.

[Tortington]

oh but - nowt wrong with shorts skirts and make up.

[charitygirl]

Well, as a feminist who wears make up, I have to say I never have felt this view, or come across it from other feminists. Particularly at 17!

However, much as I enjoy wearing make up (both the results and the application), I have to be completely honest and say that quite a large part of why I do is to gain brownie points from mainstream society and to fit the 'beauty ideal' as much as I can. Makes life in a hostile world easier. Don't think many women feel conmfortable admitting to this, but it's hard to get away from, don't you think?

Not going to touch the 'women who looked rather like men' comment!

[charitygirl]

When you say 'break the dungaree myth' Custardo, how do you propose this is done? Because i've never met a feminist in dungarees. Absolutely agree with you if you mean, people must challenge this silly lie designed to discredit femism whenever they hear it.

But if you mean 'feminists should stop wearing dungarees' then (a) job done and (b) how would telling women what to wear help in any way?

[amiheartless]

I hope I didny offend I dont mean women who wear un girly clothes,no make up

they did literally look like men.

theres a lot of that attitude around, sometimes I think 'younger ones' don't grasp the whole meaning a pick out bits

IYSWIM

[Tortington]

yeah i think dungarees =feminism is bollocks

[JeremyVile]

What do you mean 'they did literally look like men'?

Sounds bizarre that 17yr olds would say this to you.

[amiheartless]

No I meant it wasnt just a case of not wearing make up, not girly its everyones own perogative.wearing dungarees /no make up you can still tell your a woman.to clarify. you know how sometimes you have to look twice, well like that. anyhoo ..

I don't judge someone for not wearing make up, I feel I shouldt be judged for wearing it IYSWIM
vanity does come into it

i do it to cover up scarring, poc hols mostly and a mishapened face. If I had flawless skin I would generall wear les, but wont be the case :(

anyhoo just wanted to know If anyone had been in my sit or in the girls, I think its a large reason why so mant people dismiss it.

[SardineQueen]

I suppose the difficulty is with people taking one bunch of people who are horrible, and tarring everyone in the same group with the same brush.

So like judging all football supporters based on the actions of some Millwall supporters in the 80s

Judging all christians on the actions of some horrifyingly extreme ones

Judging all birdspotters on the basis of meeting one in 1994 who turned out to be quite dull

That sort of thing. And I think it's human nature TBH - something to notice in yourself and try not to do - but we all do it I think.

Anyway that's the thing we have here - some really horrible teenaged girls who have put someone off feminism on the basis that they said they were feminists and were horrible, which is fair enough TBH.

I think that we all fear what we don't know - so the answer is to get as many women as possible saying that yes they are feminists. When it's the woman next door and the women in work and your mum and they are all sane and don't go around in dungarees hissing at men then the situation will improve.

[amiheartless]

well said SardineQueen

tbh I think if you challenge sexist views, etc you are in your own right a femininst

[SardineQueen]

I couldn't give a monkeys whether individual people wear makeup or not TBH.

What I do give a monkeys about is an idea that a woman basically has to wear makeup in certain situations, that all adverts show women who are heavily made-up (even the ones for makeup remover ), all women on the telly are "painted" (as opposed to the lighter look men get away with) as if women's natural looks are below par in some way.

[amiheartless]

This is true,

[SeeJaneKick]

I think that what puts many women off being openly "a Feminist" is the idea that people see it as "Unfeminine" in some way.

The dungaree myth being a common one...like all feminists look like Milly Tant from Viz and are agressive and unreasonable.

[TondelayoSchwarzkopf]

Dungarees are rubbish for weeing access. That is my contribution to this thread.

I liked the jumpsuit trend. For the up to date feminist.

[JeremyVile]

It's horrible that they were mean to you.

It's horrible when anyone is picked on.

But if we're looking at this as a feminism/image situation then the fact is they will ahve, and probably continued to, suffer FAR more prejudice (and from a greater number of groups) than you did as a blonde, big breasted female who dresses in a 'feminine' way.

[amiheartless]

I'm notsure actually Jeremy. its I'd deff agree if we were talking the begining of the 00's the emergence of Paris Hilton,.mean girls the wag etc

but this was 2007/2008 and more people saw this image less dseirable, I'd say more women get mocked now who may look a bit like WAGs IYSWIM

tbh I'd quite like some dungaress haha,

[JeremyVile]

Women get mocked every which way!

And not that it really matters in terms of your op, but you cannot seriously think it has ever been more deisrable or 'acceptable' to be an openly feminist woman who (in your words) looks like a man than a woman who wears feminine clothes and make-up?

[SardineQueen]

I also think that the idea that a woman who is blonde and big breasted gets an easier time of it is not true. People thinking you're stupid (literally genuinely believing that you are stupid), only talking to your breasts, men shouting at you whenever you walk down the street when you are quite young as you have two "obvious" things which draw their gaze ie big tits and blonde hair... If you're not a natural exhibitionist the whole thing is awful.

There was a woman who rang in a tv prog I was watching about "beauty" who had had a breast reduction and dyed her natural blonde hair brown as she couldn't stand it, the way she was treated. Things had improved for her but what a shame that she couldn't just keep her natural appearance, because it happened to coincide with an appearance that is short-hand for "sex" in our society.

I think that you can't win if you're female is the answer. If you don't meet the beauty standard then you are doing it wrong, if you do meet the beauty standard then you get a load of shit too. you can't win.

[FlamingOBingo]

It is a feminist issue that women should not be told by anyone what they ought to wear. We are told countless times that we should wear less (too prudish/frigid/mannish otherwise) and also that should wear more (too slutty/cheap otherwise). As a feminist, surely we should want women to wear what they bloody well like!

SQ - about not being able to win if you're a woman, full stop. I agree. I went into visit DH at his work a few weeks ago, having not been there bfore. Totally male-dominated environment, in an industry known for it's misogyny. DH texted after I left to say his nobhead manager had said I was a 'looker' and asked him how big my nipples were after breastfeedign for so long. And his idiot gay colleague said that 'he'd do me if he weren't gay'. What about 'she seems interesting - would love to talk to her sometime properly about XXX'?

[SmellsLikeTeenStrop]

What gets me is how any man - no matter how far from the 'masculine ideal' he is - feels free to criticise our bodies and our looks.

A few years ago I recall walking past a group of men and one of them, a very obese man looked at me and started singing ''who ate all the pies, you ate all the pies''. At that time I was overweight, a size 16 but nothing compared to this guy whose generous gut spilled over the top of his elasticated waisted trousers, his tits were bigger then mine ffs. I replied ''you did obviously'' and in return got a barrage of abuse.