Surnames and women - thought you lot might be interested

[JaneS]

I went to a lecture last night and one of the points that came up was about surnames, so I thought the MN feminists might be interested since it relates to those arguments about taking or not taking one's husband's name.

I've often heard people say that by keeping your 'maiden' name, all you're doing is keeping one man's name in preference to another man's name. Of course there are arguments against that (it's the name you've been known by all your life, etc.), but I thought this was interesting:

Apparently, lots of common English surnames like Brewster, Baxter, Webster, come from Anglo-Saxon words that have been given a feminine ending. So, a Brewer is a male maker of beer; a Brewster is a female maker of beer. A Baker is a man; a Bake-ster (Baxter) is a woman, and so on.

So, it seems - although we can't prove exactly how it happened - that at some point in history, families took the names of a female breadwinner.

I have no idea how significant this is in academic terms, but it's rather nice, isn't it?

[Drizzela]

Thanks for that. It is interesting.

[TeiTetua]

Hah. I once worked with a man who enjoyed sewing as a hobby, and he used to describe himself as a "seamster". Just the same as a seamstress, then?

[alexpolismum]

It sounds fascinating. I wish I had been to your lecture, it sounds like my kind of subject! I wonder if there is anything online..?

[sethstarkaddersmackerel]

wow! thanks LRD, that is interesting.

[PrettyCandles]

Don't forget Spinster - the unmarried woman spinning yarn to make her trouseau. That never became a surname - would have indicated an illegitimate birth!

[JaneS]

Tei - I think you could argue some 'ster' endings aren't related ('roadster', gamester). But I'm not sure why - I'm not a philologist myself.

alex - I don't know what's online, but I know the lecturer took issue with the still-unrevised entry in the OED that was written around 1900 by some prick who comments that it seems highly unlikely men ever 'consented' to be known by female-sounding surnames, so he is unsure what could be happening.

I'm glad you all liked it, it put a smile on my face and there's not often a chance to do that when you're looking at language and sexism!

[PrettyCandles]

Gangster is a relatively modern word. I think it appeared in America during Prohibition. Adding -ster to a noun to indicate someone who does or is that noun had probably become genderless by then.

[PrettyCandles]

Gangster is a relatively modern word. I think it appeared in America during Prohibition. Adding -ster to a noun to indicate someone who does or is that noun had probably become genderless by then.

[SardineQueen]

DH says maybe it was something to do with the vikings?

Is cool anyway

[JaneS]

Pretty - I think the 'ster' there is an unrelated thing to do with voicing. 'Ganger' is hard to say, and it's common to introduce a medial sound to make it easier. (It's analogous to the way that a 'flutterby' becomes a 'butterfly', because that combination of sounds is easier to say).

Sardine - could be, I wouldn't know!

[TeiTetua]

Another American word is "teamster", a man who works with horses and wagons (as in a "team" of horses). Back when horse-drawn vehicles were common, it was definitely regarded as men's work. There aren't many teamsters now, but there's still the Teamsters' Union, a trade union that has an unfortunate association with organized crime. So, gangsters among the teamsters, and vice versa.

Look up Jimmy Hoffa if you're interested.

[PrettyCandles]

Hmm, not convinced. I don't think butterfly is any easier or harder to say than butterfly, and, in any case, I'm fairly sure that 'ganger' has a meaning of its own, to do with work crews - possibly a senior navvy?

It's easy enough for usage of a word or suffix to widen: you would think nothing of a female conductor nowadays.

As to how the -ster surnames became common, I imagine that could be something to do with widows carrying on with the family business, at a time when surnames were not fixed and unchanging.

[nailak]

did you know that in the islamic religion women are supposed to keep their own surnames and not take their husbands surnames, as they keep their own family identity (theoretically)

[JaneS]

pretty - I've always heard that explanation for butterfly, and it's very common for languages to introduce medial consonants to make things easier to say - but this isn't my area of study, and like you, I'm confused by the existence of words like 'gamer' (though that's a recent coinage).

I think, as well as widows carrying on businesses, there will have been families where the sons ended up with several successive 'fathers' and only one mother, so had her identity. Although technically, children were the property of the husband's family at the time of death, I think it was fairly unusual to separate small children from their mother except in aristocratic circles, so a widowed woman might remarry - indeed, more than once - but her sons could well end up being 'John, the Webster's son' because everyone knew him as his mother's son and his father was recent in the picture. The guy who edited the OED thinks no man would ever put up with this, but I think it's perfectly plausible. I don't think they were so hung up on the idea of a feminine name applied to a man being somehow degrading.

There are plenty of people who were very happy to be lords or earls in their wife's right (though I guess that is a little different because the name itself wouldn't imply femininity).

[JaneS]

nailak - I'd heard that was true of Egyptian women, which makes sense of course, given what you're saying. Nice to know!

(I love building up info to show people that it's not always been 'tradition' to take a man's name and therefore 'normal'! )

[PrettyCandles]

Not in this case, I think. Etymology of "butterfly". I've looked on several different places, and similar explanations everywhere. Not found any mentions of 'flutterby'.

[Helzapoppin]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing that :)

I work with children and families in a very multicultural part of London and many of the families from different parts of Asia and Africa do not have the tradition of changing names on marriage and I think it's the case in many parts of Southern Europe and South America too. Could it be that (some) northern european women are in something of a minority in following this convention?

[JaneS]

pretty - interesting, but then butterflies are actually called flutterbys in some of the manuscripts I've seen. I wonder why?

Helza - it'd be interesting if we were in a minority, wouldn't it? I just get so down when people act as if not changing your name is somehow wrong, or even try to tell you it's illegal not to use your married name.

[SardineQueen]

I always thought butterfly came from flutterby as well.

However I have no idea why I think that, who told me that, or have any evidence to show anyone

[PrettyCandles]

Maybe it is the medial sound process at work! Flutterbye is very descriptive and makes sense.

Don't married women keep their maiden name in Spain?

IIRC in Victorian times it became customary for the eldest son to be given his mother's maiden name as his first name, particularly if she had no brothers. That is how traditional surnames like Clifford, Winston, Lincoln became common first names.

[JaneS]

Oops - I just checked and it says 'flutteriys' not 'flutterbies'. Ahem. I can't read scripts!

I like that about Victorian naming - makes sense, I know people who do that as a family tradition and it sounds very Victorian too.

Spain is weird and wonderful - everyone stacks up all their names one after another!