Alice Schwarzer- heterosexual sex involves inevitable subjugation of women

[winnybella]

There was an article in The Guardian about a spat between her and a government minister

here

It doesn't really say much about her (apparently she's a famous German feminist)

I was wondering if anyone here (Dittany?) would know what was she talking about?

DP read it and said 'Hasn't she heard about women being on top?', but I would like to know what did she mean by that.

TIA

[NomDePlume]

Is it because we are the ones being penetrated ?

What about cunnilingus, a fairly routine part of heterosexual sex ? Are we still being being repressed there ? I assume she is referring to the idea that 'sex is power' and traditionally (still the in the majority of cases?) men play(ed?) the more dominant role.

I dunno. This is a brainspill. I am neither a feminist scholar nor a frequent flyer on this board.

[poshsinglemum]

I think that this argument is only relevant in cases of rape.
If one wishes to be penetrated how can it be repressive? It feels good mostly so what's the problem? We are designed to be penetrated after all. That's how we reproduce. It's natural.

[winnybella]

Thank you both.

What's your opinion on that, Dittany?

Will read the link.

[Bue]

Andrea Dworkin was formidable but I've never had much time for her because of this argument. I think it's an interesting question to debate, but ultimately it's codswallop.

But dittany, quite a lot of women DO orgasm from intercourse. And even if they don't, that doesn't mean it's not pleasurable/they don't want it as part of a sexual encounter.

[Bue]

OK I do agree with your point about porn and violence.

[BelleDameSansMerci]

Hmmm... I can the point being made but I feel powerful during consensual sex (as I'm sure he does too) and, for me, it's about me and how I feel (how selfish).

That's not to say that sex isn't used to subjugate and control as it so clearly is but it doesn't follow that all sex is therefore subjugation.

[BelleDameSansMerci]

Dittany - that gives the impression that sex is something that's done to us. That's not how I feel about consensual sex or how I'd express it. I don't think I'm odd in this.

[Unprune]

You're not odd.
Intercourse can be used as a weapon; and the fears of unwanted pregnancy and of STDs has been a powerful tool of shame and social oppression.
Those scenarios don't really have much to say about loving, consensual sex, IMO.

[bran]

So what arises from this theory? How is the subjugation to be resolved?

On a personal level I can't relate to this at all. I enjoy sex with dh, and get a bit twitchy if there's a bit of a break. DH is very good at it, I find it pleasureable before, during and afterwards. We both enjoy the fact that we turn each other on. If I don't like something I simply say so and we do something else.

I can see that sex could very easily involve subjugation, but it isn't inevitable. You could probably theorise that any human interaction could potentially involve subjugation if one person has an advantage over the other (physical/mental/financial/emtional etc) and wishes to use that advantage.

[Portofino]

Me either. And animals have penises too, and subject females to sex for breeding purposes - tis basic biology surely. And yes us humans have evolved, and SHOULD get a say on whether we want to it or not. But if the argument is that penetrative sex is really just down to the patriarchy having their way again, then....

[GirlWithTheMouseyHair]

doesn't the language aspect just tie into the fact that all language is patriarchal, male centred and created by men, as with everything inherent in all societies and cultures, and less to do about sex as a biological contruct?

[BelleDameSansMerci]

I can see the cultural point but I still don't agree. I can see that heterosexual intercourse could give the appearance of subjugation but that doesn't mean it's what's happening.

[Portofino]

Sex is an entirely natural thing surely - it IS the be all that ends all. No sex, no babies, no future. Unless we have moved into Brave New World - and lord they had their own problems...... I can see no reason why consensual penetrative sex between loving partners is seen as a bad thing (unless one of them is underage/dead or something)

[BelleDameSansMerci]

And the conversation moves swiftly on while I'm deliberating over my choice of words... I can't keep up with you lot!

[Portofino]

We're not talking of rape here though.

[GirlWithTheMouseyHair]

I get where you're coming from BDSM (interesting acronym considering the thread section!), that essentially it's biology and while that doesn't mean it can't be used as a form of subjugation, it does not inherently mean it is. What is the outcome anyway, we all stop having sex?

I'm one of thoe women who don't come from clitoral stimulation but do more often than not from penetrative sex