Feminists who talk too much and do too little

[TheBossofMe]

Somewhat provocative title, but I'm feeling a bit riled.

I belong to a feminist group here - joined reasonably recently after moving to Bangkok. Before I left the UK, I also belonged to a feminist discussion/book group (started as the latter, sort of evolved into the former). In both cases, I've noticed that most members (not all, but the vast vast majority) love to sit and discuss, love to talk about what people should do, but then when a few of us try and arrange some actual doing, come up with lots of excuses as to why they can't do it themselves.

Two examples, in the UK group, we got into a long and protracted discussion about DV and its impact on women. Lot's of talk about the patriarchy, about how the system conspires to keep women down, etc etc etc. A few of us then started to build links with a local DV support group (where all we were doing was each volunteering 2-3 hours a week to help out - in my instance, I helped the fundraisers market to businesses, formulate grant applications etc, in another friend's case, she just sourced stuff from freecycle to help some of the affected families, so stuff that anyone with an internet link can do).

But when we tried to get some more of the group to help out for just an hour a week each, we go every excuse under the sun from "what can one person do?" to "there's no point just doing the little things, we need to overturn the whole system" to "I just don't have any time to spare" from women who seemed to find time to read books and discuss. OK, am being a bit unfair, because I do appreciate the fact that it can be hard to dedicate a lot of time, which is why I worked so hard to find some things that people could do from home for an hour or two a week. I was working FT at the time and still managed to find a few hours a week spare (commute time in the main) to do things, so really struggled to understand why of a group of 30-40 of us, at least 20 said they didn't have time.

Now that I'm in Thailand, I see the same thing happening. I;m fairly new to the group, so not the instigator of projects, but only 3 or 14 of us actually do anything (beyond signing a petition, which even the most apathetic group member seems not to be able to find an excuse to avoid). There are two fab projects which the group "supports" but that support seems just to be talking about how great the projects are, and ever so often having a coffee morning to fundraise. Nothing more, which is a bit rubbish, especially since only 2 of the group work and all have FT home help.

At the risk of falling into the trap of stereotyping, are we at risk of just loving the sounds of our own voices, and loving to discuss, but are so apathetic about actually doing anything that nothing is ever going to change? Are we to condemning ourselves to just whining and moaning, but being so paralysed by the potential barriers and pitfalls that we fail to do anything to improve the lives of women?

OK, that was very ranty and not entirely coherent, but rather cathartic! So, I guess the question is, does lack of action rule in general, or do I just choose my fem groups badly????

[NickOfTime]

well, what is the fundraising for? that must be helping a little?

there are no feminist groups here, but of my several voluntary commitments, one is guiding, and there are some very cool opportunities wrt discussing girls/ teens/ women/ fashion/ relationships/ role models/ music... the list is endless. i'm also involved with scouting, and so can hopefully influence some burgeoning male attitudes along the way... (last term we had the cubs ironing, hoovering and cooking) the boys themselves thought it was way cool. unfortunately, one of the male leaders made a comment along the lines of 'what are you doing all that girls' stuff for?' to one of the boys in passing. way to be a role model...

so, i think you're quite lucky to have groups you can access - but maybe you have different reasons for being there? is it actively marketed as an 'action' group? or just a place that like-minded women can hang out together and chat? maybe you all just have different ideas of what membership of the group entails?

are you set up with a committee and an annual plan of what you want to achieve? or is it more of a social club?

[TheBossofMe]

The last coffee morning raised the grand total of around 20 pounds in coffee and cake. The ingredients required to bake the cakes cost more than that. Pointless. The commitee is entirely made up of the most apathetic of the group - I think they just see it as a social club that allows them to claim some kudos without ever having to do anything. No annual plan at all.

The Bangkok group is an action group - it even has the word action in its title. The UK was started as a discussion group, but even so, I would have expected people to be interested in such things to actually want to do something about them. But the overwheloming feeling I'm left with is that most members just like moaning, writing and discussing, but think its someone else's problem to actually fix things.

Guiding is v.cool - hope you had words with the male leader.

[Sakura]

Feminists who talk at all is a good start. Many women don't identify as feminist because they think they're ugly hairy "lesbians" -because that's what patriarchy tells them they are. So many women distance themselves from the feminist movemet and collaborate with patriarchy to attack the feminist movement.


So talking has always been an enormous part of any movement, and patriarchy has always been very keen to split women up to stop the talking. But yes, women definitely need to organize too. Unfortunately, many women's lives are so constrained that doing much in groups is difficult.
I think the internet is a wonderful tool for women in a position like that, and you can do so much with it thesedays.


Another problem, again is children. remember Kate who picketed the funeral of that prostitute user? So incredibly brave, but I'm guessing she's got no children. MOthers have got too much to lose by going to jail.

Just wait until my kids are independant though...

[AliceWorld]

I absolutely get what you are saying and have had so many conversations about this, not just in relation to feminism but outside too. After lurking for a while I ended up joining because this post interests me so much :)

Yes it is important for people to have space to talk, and often that is something lacking and needs a safe space for it to happen. So I'm not seeing it as an either/or at all.

But, I have been involved in setting up and organising a few things, and the same problem recurs over and over. There will be a larger group of people who say 'yeh we should do this', 'yeh we should do that' but when it comes to volunteering to make it happen, you might get 'yeh I'll try' but usually just an expectation that I will make it happen for them. But save for a very small number of people, who get so worn down they eventually give up, nothing happens.

I honestly find it fascinating. I believe in society, culture, expectations etc (call it many things) structuring the way people behave, so I am not so much fascinated with individual responses, but why it is that people en masse behave like this. I can't believe that it is just there happens to be a whole bunch of unusually inactive people in a room - that doesn't make sense to me. And because I find it fascinating I have had numerous conversations where people report the same thing.

But yet historically things have happened. Movements have happened. So was it different then, or was it just the same and in reality a 'movement' was a small group of people.

And I have also come across little exceptions, where people do all get involved. Where you suggest something, and say who can do 'x' and 5 people put up their hand, over and over. I've given it sooo much thought but cannot spot what it is that makes this difference.

It really really fascinates me, and would love to do some research on it one day... Maybe I can box it all up in 'Big Society' and get myself some research funding

[TheBossofMe]

Sakura - its not that these women won't do the kind of stuff that might send you to jail, they won't do anything that actually involves some effort beyond talk, reading and baking. So how hard is it to volunteer to find clothes from stores for a women's refuge (done that), or to spend 2 hours a week helping women fill in forms for income support. Nothing illegal, but too much effort for most.

[TheBossofMe]

Alice - would love to get involved in that research if you ever get funding!

[HerBeatitude]

I think you have to accept that in any movement, talking always pre-dates acting and backs up any action. The percentage of talking that goes in, always heavily outweighs the percentage of action and is just as important because without the talking, teh action wouldn't happen.

I know it's frustrating when you're one of the actors, but it's just the way things are in life. You need the thinkers, the talkers, the discussions - the action has always been the preserve of a tiny number of people, who were backed up and sustained by the discussion of the majority (of those in the movement).

[Sakura]

And without the talking there would be no theorists, novelists, the bohemiams were all talkers/poets and were the hub of Victorian feminism.
SO don'T worry about the talkers. But we need to get more people talking.

[Takver]

Maybe the sort of women who would take action are out doing different things (thinking of the many women I know who are very politically active in diverse ways)? Possibly because in recent years there hasn't been so much discussion of feminism - hopefully now changing.

[TheBossofMe]

Prolesworth - don't know, haven't really been part of other groups in the same way, except in a professional capacity where action is more prevalent. I suspect its probably not just a feminist problem, but have no actual experience of the problem outside feminism.

Grrr, I think I'm probably being very unreasonable (should have posted there) but I'm a doer and find inaction soooooooo frustrating!

Sakura - yes more need to talk, but all talk and no action is just hot air. IMHO of course!

[Sakura]

But feminism is one of those movements where the activists can't activate unless you're talking about a full-scale revolutio (which I think osd on the cards this century BTW)
And I think this is called intersectionality, but it's a teensy bit annoying when people say that women who aren't activists aren't doing anything. My own real life work has a feminist slant and outlook, how could it not? But I don't describe myself as an activist, just a woman.

Female obstetricians, lawyers... or in any profession, you will find women working for the greater good

[AliceWorld]

Don't know if the question was directed to me too, but for me its not just feminist groups, nor just political groups. A vast aray of groups. (Or perhaps I mean a small number of diverse groups ;) )

The talking I'm talking about, which may be different, is not all developing thinking kind of talking, which I absolutely embrace - its what I do. Or even the experience talking which is also hugely important to have that space. Its the 'we should do this' talking, or more often 'you should so this' talking. Where loads of people agree in doing an activity/event etc but then no-one does it.

[TheBossofMe]

Sakura - but the precursor to revolution is small actions, surely? Actions which directly impact on women's lives. So I get annoyed with women who talk about how women with HIV are being marginalised vs the services available to men (this is Thailand specific), but won't volunteer 2 crappy hours a week to help in a great project here in Bangkok that seeks to redress this imbalance. It just feels like a giant moan if you're not prepared to do something about it.

And yes, you are right, many women are doing everyday things in their everyday lives, I should acknowledge that more.

[TheBossofMe]

Speaking of doing, I'm off now for my once a week volunteering at said project, so will catch up with comments in the morning!

[Takver]

"But feminism is one of those movements where the activists can't activate unless you're talking about a full-scale revolutio (which I think osd on the cards this century BTW) "

Far too pessimistic, I think, Sakura - surely it will never be on the cards unless everyone who thinks it would be a good idea gets up & takes action now, in whatever way makes sense to them.

[BaggedandTagged]

Very interesting thread- thanks BoM.

I think I'm inclined to agree with you- talk, at the end of the day, is cheap, righteous anger is fun, and we can all sit around waiting for the revolution but I think success is more likely by evolution- apart from anything else, change achieved like this tends to be more sustainable.

However, I think what you're seeing is actually a symptom of any volunteer movement-people like the talking bit and the grand gestures "orphan hugging" bit, but are not so keen on the routine volunteering/ admin bit which isn't as glamorous/ sociable.

Dont even get me started on fundraising events and how inefficient/ badly thought out most of them are - will have to start a new thread just so I can rant to myself about it for weeks

[purits]

There was a thread the other day (teaspoons) about lots of little things adding up to big changes.

Can you
a) get them to discuss the concept, in the hope that it will prick their consciences and/or
b) institute an agenda item along the lines of 'this week I have done a feminist thing, I have ...'. Although, having said that, I used to belong to an (ordinary) book group which did a similar thing. They used to go round the group one-by-one and brightly ask "what else have you read this month?". As one who found it a struggle to find time for the set text never mind anything else, I found it very embarassing and eventually left the group (and now no longer find the time for even one book a month)

[celticfairy101]

Charity as the saying goes begins at home. The biggest change a woman can make is in rearing her children to embrace feminist ideals. We have done it in terms of racism, now we need to show children that equality isn't handed on a plate.

[vesuvia]

I think there is a general tendency in all sorts of groups to expect others to give extra time and commitment. I've been involved with numerous feminist and non-feminist groups and they all have difficulty in getting enough people to turn words into actions. Many groups constantly struggle to find enough committee members who often end up doing most of the action in a group, even if it's a harmless hobby nothing to do with feminism.

Feminist action could put you on the wrong side of various patriarchal laws or multi-national corporations, which is more serious, with bigger risks and consequences. I'm saddened that such fears can put people off action but not surprised. I only have to think of the hostility from non-feminists that our talk on this discussion board often generates, to understand how many feminists will shy away from action.

[Sakura]

yes, which takes you back to the fact that women with small children simply cannot risk activism until their children are grown because feminist activism by default puts you on the wrong side of the law.

But there is no reason why women without young children couldn't do more.

I do think you shouldn't underestimate talking. Have you heard about the Overton window? People are saying it's shifted on MN. Less people are coming out with rape myths since Dittany set up the feminist topic.

[vesuvia]

Words and actions are not mutually exclusive. Discussing a topic or writing words in a leaflet, blog or discussion board is also action. Discussion groups and blogs etc. that debunk myths about women, myths about men's bad treatment of women and myths about feminism are vital.

Change will occur if/when the attitudes of people in power are changed. Those attitudes can be changed by words and action. Both are important.

[Sakura]

yes... people should talk and act if they can, but the talking/writing/communicating is in no way inferior. The pen is mightier than the sword and always has been in any movement/revolution