Teaching young girls about make-up - anyone want to talk about this?

[Cappster]

I don't know if there have been 100 threads about this already but anyway

My Yr1 dd2 is wanting to borrow my make-up or put nail varnish on in order to look 'pretty'.(Dd1 has never been all that fussed, really, she has a much more sporty style so the subject never really came up)

There's no point me coming off all highminded about the subject because I wear make-up everyday. Also I don't want to get into the way my mum did it ("You don't need it because your skin is so young") because what's wrong with looking 40+ anyway? Men don't start wearing make-up when they're 40.

Anyway. I've been talking to her about it being a costume, and we had a good old chat about a girl with bright pink hair the other day that she liked, and about how she hadn't dyed it to be 'pretty' but to make herself look different, like dressing up maybe

I'm wondering, because her and her sister are watching shedloads of Horrible Histories at the moment, of getting some face paints and doing historical make-up eg Egyptians, Georgians etc to show how fashions for how people are expected to look change through time

I'm more alarmed by this because of her saying to a five year old boy at our campsite on holiday ('See you tomorrow! If you like I'll be in the dress I wore today' ).

What does anyone else think?

[annoyingdevil]

Watching with interest as I have exactly the same problem with my five year old who also wants to dye her lovely blond hair black

[spots]

Yes. I find the subject tricky. My 6 year old has been invited to 'make up parties' with her friends, which I hate. There's a natural inclination to experiment with 'grownup' things, but there's no need to celebrate it as a part of childhood in its own right. I would love more ideas on how to deal with it... I have said to mine that children's lips are naturally more red than adults', and their cheeks more smooth, so make-up just looks a bit odd on children. But that pretty much goes along the same lines as your mum's point!

I like your discussion about it being a costume. That puts it apart from everyday life, which I think is about right for this age group.

[RamblingRosa]

I don't have the answer to this but watch with interest. DD is only (almost) 3 but the topic has come up a few times as I wear a fair bit of make up and she asks me what it's for and why I'm wearing it. I really don't have the answers. I feel like a big hypocrite for wearing make up. I'd like to say it's because it's fun and it's about costume and dressing up but it's not. For me it's about trying to hide the things I don't like about myself and trying to fit in with a perceived idea of what's "pretty" or "attractive" or "groomed". I know that for me make up is very linked to low self esteem and body image. I really don't want to pass all of that on to DD. The same goes for shaving legs etc.

I'm afraid I use your mother's line of "you're already beautiful so you don't need make up" but that doesn't really help as it implies that women who are less beautiful should hide their ugly mugs away under layers of make up whereas men don't have to worry about such things.

[tabouleh]

I wish I'd seen when I was a teen. (2 minute video showing normal - made up - airbrushed image)

(although of course the air brushing was not so bad in those days!)

A book was recommended by Dittany the other day, Beauty and Misogyny - Harmful Cultural Practices in the West you can read quite a bit on amazon in the "look inside".

I like the construct of western make up/plastic surgery/fashion as being a harmful cultural practice - I think we as women in the West don't give much thought to our own culture but we can of course be quick to judge things like this.

This is not a recommendation to ban makeup/stop wearing it just a suggestion to introduce your DD to some of these ideas now.

I have started to think of make up as a "costume" part of "dressing up" in a suit etc.

I guess building positive body image/self esteem etc needs to start young (have a DS 2.11 so not given it much thought).

www.newmoon.com/ - this website ffor girls looks good to counteract mainstream culture - also the message behind www.pinkstinks.co.uk/

[tabouleh]

btw I do wear makeup but not everyday

[JustDoMyLippyThenWeWillGo]

Interesting. I love make up and wear it everyday. I think part of what you describe just stems from children wanting to copy what they see adults doing. My ds (2) wants to do make up too, as he sees me doing it, and I let him play with the brushes and stuff rather than saying he can't as he is a boy. DD is 9 and is very keen on fashion and make up. I worry about this, but try to explain to her that I wear make up because I like it; lots of people don't and both are perfectly acceptable. I also talk to her about airbrushing and so on so that she knows that these images are not acually how people look. She has loved nail polish,hair things, and so on from an early age and I think it is harmless if done for fun and because she enjoys it. But not as a matter of course every day I hasten to add.

[PosieParker]

I wear make up everyday, mascara and lipstick...my dd got in the car (just four) and said 'oh no I didn't put my make up on'...she had Lellikellys from my mother which came with make up!¬

[JustDoMyLippyThenWeWillGo]

Tho have just thought,my user name probably indicates that I am far too shallow and will scar dcs for life. Maybe not the person to comment on this, on reflection

[PosieParker]

DC4 also likes his toe nail (just one he won't stay still after begging) painted, he's 22 months!

[dott]

My dd is four and OBSSESSED with make up. I am a very low maintenance woman, very scruffy and rarely wear make up as I am so disorganised. My dd is the opposite to me I think this is partly in her rather than learnt she wants to dress up and do all the make up stuff. That is her, I used to worry that I would have a negative impact on her or impair her ability to be as girlie as she wants. Clearly that is not the case.

But I worry about how much to let her do what she wants to do with her make up and how far to let it go. If she had her way she would be wearing heels, and I have said no only the dressing up plastic ones and never to be worn out of the house. Needless to say I wear heels about once a year!

[spiritmum]

I have two dds aged 8 and 6. Neither are allowed make-up as such, although during the holidays I have recently allowed them to have glitter nail polish. They keep getting lip gloss as gifts and after chucking it away a few times I did relent and let them put it on once in a blue moon, at home only.

I explain that make-up is for older girls and grown-ups and they will have some when they are the right age. This comes from my own experience where I was allowed make-up from a very young age (by 8 I was allowed out with full lippy, eye shadow and blusher! ) which meant that I had to push the boundaries further as a teenager. I'm a big believer in milestones so that when dd1 is aged xxx she can have yyy.

That said, dd1 isn't that bothered about her appearance and likes to look horsey. Dd2 OTOH loves being pretty. I have very mixed feelings about this; she is a very quirky little girl who struggles to fit in with her peers and loving pink and pretty gives her a point in common with them. Without it I really think she'd be completely left out, esp. as the group of girls in her class are all into Lelli Kellis and the like (banned in our house - luckily dd1 has taught dd2 that they are v.uncool). The girls in dd1's year are nowhere near as preoccupied with their appearance.

I look on make-up as an inessential accessory; it's nice but is no more a part of me than a hair clip. I did read something in the papers this week about wearing make-up for the school run equalling a lack of self-esteem. Putting make-up on in the mornings is a way for me to take time out for myself, but it doesn't bother me if I don't get the time to do it. I think it's something fun, which is what I intend to teach the dds, too.

[Fennel]

That sort of obsession with clothes and make up often peaks at 5-6. My nieces were obsessed with those thigns at 5, now at 16 they don't usually wear make up, they are sporty or active in appearance, not girly. At 5 they were ridiculously obsessed with clothes and make up. Another niece, at 6 was into make up and high heels, now at 8 she wouldn't go near those things.

I think I've had it easy, I have 3 dds but none are interested in make up. in fact I have to frogmarch them all into the bath or force them to brush their hair, and the older two (10 and 9) prefer tatty old clothes. I tend to be scruffy with no make up but my daughters are taking it too far....

[Cappster]

tabouleh we have seen that Dove video, and shown it to the dds - some of those links are really helpful, thanks

spots I am with you on hating the make-up parties. A friend's daughter was recently making a poster for a fundraising event she decided she wanted to hold for her friends (she's 9) and it was along the lines of 'Come along if you need a good pamper' - wtf? why would a nine year old need a 'good pamper'

Mind you, I can't imagine why women see pampering as the only way of relaxing. I read something the other day saying that on holidays the dads might go scuba diving or golfing or something, and the women would go to a spa. Are we giving girls the idea that beauty is the only way to relax?

RamblingRosa - I can see what you mean and that's difficult. However, I can't see a problem with saying you want to look 'groomed' - that's something you can quite reasonably expect of either sex - but 'pretty' - maybe not. Groomed is just like a man putting a suit on and having a shave, surely.

[spiritmum]

My dd2 had a 'pamper party' at a soft play centre for her 6th birthday. In reality it was nail painting plus a hair braid, alongside party games, food and a play on the frame. The school sportingly let the girls keep their polish on the next day, too.

Difficult one, as explained above having this party did wonders for dd2's popularity. Not sure her other idea - everyone pretending to be cats for two hours - would have gone down quite so well, sadly .

[RamblingRosa]

True Cappster but - as has been done to death on other threads on here - women seem to have to do a lot more to pass as "groomed" than a man does. My DP seems to manage with just a 2 minute shower and a squirt of deodorant. I'm not going to start listing all the many things I do to pass as "groomed", not least because it will make me look like a vain lunatic!

Make up parties? WTF? Have I got all this to look forward to then? :(

[spiritmum]

IME 'pamper parties' are fairly low-key - hairstyling and nails max. I would be very put out by the dds getting invited to make-up parties, or - worse - makeover parties.

[boogeek]

My DD1 is only 6 but very interested ("pamper parties" are all the rage here - which is basically hair, eyeshadow, nail varnish but I hate it what's wrong with pass the sodding parcel?) - but to go off on a bit of a tangent, I was flicking through the book issued by our feeder high school last week as my neighbour's DD has just started. They allow makeup for girls in Y9 and above: what do you all think about that? On one hand I suppose they are accepting the inevitable but I just think it gives the message that they ought to be wearing it. I'd far rather it was against the rules but a blind eye was turned, as happened at my own secondary school.

[Snowstorm]

My DD's (6 and 7) are allowed to play with their kids-type make-up, which they've been given in party bags and for presents, whenever they want to, but they aren't allowed to wear it out of the house. Same applies for face paints - although they can wear that out if they want to but they usually choose not to! I'm happy to put nail vanish on their fingers or toes in the school holidays if they ask me to (1 does, 1 doesn't).

I don't let them have mascara (because it's too grown up for them; I don't want them to poke their eyes out; and, I don't want to use make-up remover on/near their eyes to get it off afterwards) but otherwise there's no issue, they have it in their bedrooms if they want it ... which they do, occasionally.

[SolidGoldBrass]

I have a boy too but he is quite interested in make up and gets me to paint his toenails sometimes. I tend to treat make up as a costume (though I wear more than I used to as am an Avon rep and consider that one of the few jobs where wearing make up is actually a reasonable work-related expectaion) and tell DS that it's something we do for fun especially when we are dressing up for special occasions. I think I'd treat it the same with a DD but I am a child of the 70s and like make up on men as well.

[spiritmum]

Boogeek, I think make-up from yr 9 up is okay. We weren't allowed make-up until 6th form so basically 15 yr olds had the same rules as 11 yr olds, and it caused huge resentment.

[Cappster]

Year 9 is what, 13? I think that's too early. We weren't allowed to wear it until 6th form. Thinking at 13 that you needed to put your eyeliner on before you went to school - doesn't bear thinking about.

I took dd1 (9) to an activity day at a stables in the holidays which was for 9-16 year olds. There were some girls of about 14 there and they had obv spent ages getting all dolled up for this day, which included feeding horses, riding a horse, grooming them and mucking out the stables. One of them looked appalled when the riding teacher handed her a pitchfork to pick up manure with. "But my jeggings!" she protested. Stable staff were just p*ssing themselves laughing at them. I can't imagine not saying to my dd 'Don't wear your best stuff to muck out a stables' in. The fact that they thought it was an occasion to pose about in their jeggings and lipgloss defies belief.