why do women collude in their own oppression?

[ColdComfortFarm]

Following the notorious Sebastian Horley thread, I feel utter despair at the way women defend their oppressors. Black people would never attend the funeral of someone who advocated cutting up black people with chainsaws, enslaving and raping them, so why do women? I'm not a fool, I know that society protects misogynists in a way it does not protect racists, but even so, why do women support women-haters in a way that Jews or black people (for example) do not? And how can we change this?

[MillyR]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom_syndrome

[MillyR]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

[OhPee]

I think that it's because most heterosexual women want to be in a sexual relationship, or to be found attractive by men at least, so they don't want to cause a stir. I won't say 'sleeping with the enemy', because I believe that many women are also hostile to female equality, and many men are not themselves sexist. But it's that kind of thing.

[scurryfunge]

It is about survival. You can fight it, escape from it or give in to it. For some women fighting it and running away from it is not viable, so they give in.

[ColdComfortFarm]

It's true that feminism is unfashionable (why?) yet it seems that, say, Jews and black people seem to have created a stronger identity than women and to collude less in their oppression, at least these days. I agree being a feminist is hard, but there has to be a big gap between saying I'm a feminist and saying 'ooh I love Sebastian Horsley' (looks around fearfully for the onslaught of the full stops)

[nasdaq]

It really winds me up too.

I wonder if it is partly education.

Partly your experience.

Maybe they so undervalue themselves they cling to power, which they see as male.

I can not stand it.

[LadyBlaBlah]

I conversely think that a lot of women use feminism in a very self destructive way - i.e. what they claim to be a feminist principle turns out not to help women at all

Such as this thread

[AllarmBells]

Isn't it because people are trying to be fair? They want to acknowledge everyone's struggles and oppression, not just their own. This is why discussions about rape are so easily derailed by "well men get raped too you know". The trouble is that if we are "fair" to everyone and don't treat women's struggles as different, society in general won't address them.

[nasdaq]

That is interesting - why is feminism out of fashion?

Perhaps it is partly to do with a culture that is sexualised, pole dancers, entertainment shows about women still objectify them.

Women are not in positions of power in England - in my experience they do not set pay at companies, they are not always on boards.

All this cosmetic beauty stuff is rubbish.

Shows such as 10 years younger are appalling.

[HerBeatitude]

In what way is this thread "not helpful" to women LadyBlabla?

I think it's very helpful to discuss why some women have Uncle Tom Syndrome. (Or Auntie Tom syndrom if you prefer.)

I think it's because we're half of humanity and that's why we haven't managed to create a strong identity of women as apart from men - and also because in the case of other minority groups, there are certain rituals, events, happenings which bond those groups and differentiate them from the majority in a positive way. Most of the bonding stuff women has, is regularly usurped by men. And being half of humanity and therefore never having to define ourselves against a majority, there really are no bonding things which are universal to nearly all of us in the way there are for other interest groups.

[HerBeatitude]

And yes, the punishments for not colluding, are very harsh.

[LadyBlaBlah]

Its all too black and white for me

A lot of the radical feminist argument I see on here never considers the grey (or the other side), and instead makes fundamental sweeping judgements about all of masculinity and males.I don't see that male/female is so divergent and the rhetoric simply creates and perpetuates a deeper separation and thus I don't think anything is achieved for women.

[ColdComfortFarm]

Actually husband agrees with me! He is baffled by why women support sexist wankers. I think if you look at my post it makes no 'fundamental sweeping judgements about all of masculinity and males' - or even anything close. So what is 'too black and white' for you. TBH I suspect this fear that even talking about stuff like this might alienate men is a big part of the problem. Is this due to fear of a offending the people with power? Or is it that women need men to make babies and to give us social acceptance that makes us so terrified of saying anything that (some) men might not like? Women asking why women support notorious woman-haters (and you don't get much more hatred than wanting to cut women up, throw away their voices and keep them to rape, surely?) is not exactly a vicious attack on all men, surely?

[FallingWithStyle]

LadyBlaBlah - I can honestly say I dont see the sweeping judgements of males and masculinity on here.
Discussion about how males and masculinity and the patriarchy sometimes impact negatively on women, yes but never attacks on men for just being men.

[ColdComfortFarm]

I don't think its easy to see how women are devalued either. I hate the constant urging of women to be like men (study engineering, do more sport etc)simply because whatever women happen to like is always seen as inherently inferior. Why is needlework less important than football? (I don't like either by the way)

[flibbertigibbert]

I read the thread about picketing the funeral and I didn't agree with it. Speaking as a black person (I have noticed that people on this topic love throwing in examples about 'black people' which I find hugely problematic, but that's another story), I would never go and protest at the funeral of someone like Enoch Powell, or when the time comes, Nick Griffin. I think it's hugely disrespectful. Protest whilst they're alive as much as you like, but turning up at someone's funeral is completely inappropriate in my opinion.

[LadyBlaBlah]

Not afraid of offending

Aware of the alienation thing - not a problem I am concerned with

Don't need social acceptance

Its just the arguments don't work

You are polarising and misrepresenting what people said on the thread

[FallingWithStyle]

...I do, however, often see discussions about feminist issues hijacked with arguments about why feminism isn't necessary or men are being done a disservice by feminist thoughts etc... Like your post for example. There was nothing anti-men on this thread. No "black and white" thinking that I can see.
I dont understand the desire to quash these discussions.

Its not about men. Its about women.

[LadyBlaBlah]

Masculinity and patriarchy is men

[LadyBlaBlah]

I think feminism is absolutely necessary.

[HerBeatitude]

But flibbertygibbet, would you go to Nick Griffin's funeral?

It's one thing not to want to protest at a funeral - it's quite another to celebrate and honour the memory of someone who had absolute contempt for you.