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Unsure about vaccinations? Try reading "Deadly Choices"

(450 Posts)
arkestra Sat 31-Aug-13 12:41:16

I got Whooping Cough recently at age 43, what fun. Apparently vaccine immunity for WC wears off after a few decades. It was as ill as I have ever been and I was pretty much out of action for 3 months. There has been an increase of WC cases recently in the SW of England, where I live. I could rant at anti -vaccine campaigners, but what would be the point? I am more concerned that the people who are unsure have access to a clear statement of the pro-vaccine position.

So can I suggest that anyone who is unsure about vaccination reads "Deadly Choices" on the pro-vaccine front even if they read nothing else?

I just had my early summer ruined. But babies get killed by this kind of thing. I totally get why people find vaccines icky and unsettling, there are hard wired ways we intuitively think about our bodies that foster that kind of reaction. So just read this book if you're on the fence OK? It would be nice if lots of other 40-somethings don't irritate everyone else with their wheezing and self-pity grin

(Gets back off soapbox)

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 15:16:52

Why would she call me a lost cause? And how is it not nasty if she did?

I'm afraid that by your own reckoning you are a risk to the general population. It's not just a small needle prick for some: it's a lifetime of damage. More than "fucking horrible".

LaVolcan: parapertussis. The vaccine doesn't work and in fact in mice experiments it makes the mouse more vulnerable to pertussis. No nickelbabe there is no vaccine against parapertussis.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 15:18:33

I think it's pretty selfish expecting other children to take a risk for you. I think it's pretty selfish, actually, a woman in her forties expecting babies to take a risk so that her summer isn't ruined.

LaVolcan Sat 31-Aug-13 15:21:38

but then the latest vaccines would be against the latest strain, wouldn't they?

I don't think they are yet, but they could be developed in time, but meanwhile you are still open to infection from them.

nickelbabe Sat 31-Aug-13 15:22:33

no, she is expecting every person (who can) to take the risk to prevent most people getting the horrible diseases by creating a barrier of protection.

that's what "herd immunity" does - it creates a barrier of protection.

If that had happened properly amongst all population, then the measles epidemic wouldn't have happened.

LaVolcan Sat 31-Aug-13 15:22:45

Cross post sorry.

nickelbabe Sat 31-Aug-13 15:23:41

"LaVolcan: parapertussis. The vaccine doesn't work and in fact in mice experiments it makes the mouse more vulnerable to pertussis. No nickelbabe there is no vaccine against parapertussis."

and don't get me started on making a completely different speics take the hit for a vaccine for us.
"in mice it makes it worse"
yeah, well, paracetamol kills dogs.

nickelbabe Sat 31-Aug-13 15:23:51

species even

arkestra Sat 31-Aug-13 15:24:23

Problem with talking sensibly on this issue is ultimately that each side thinks the other is flat out wrong, can't see how on earth they can think what they do, and thinks the wrong opinion is killing and maiming children. Makes it very hard to stay polite but its worth doing so as far as one can! After all no-one is the villain in their own internal narrative.

I would hope no-one here thinks any child a lost cause - but I do think some adults are, about some topics anyway. Clearly some here consider me a lost cause. I'm happy with that.

Hopefully I'm not sounding nasty to the average reader though. I don't think anyone on this thread is acting on bad faith. Just that some people are very wrong, and that their wrongness has negative consequences for others (herd immunity etc).

LaVolcan Sat 31-Aug-13 15:24:27

that's what "herd immunity" does - it creates a barrier of protection.

But not if that nasty bacteria has gone and mutated. Think of MRSA and antibiotics.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 15:32:01

Actually there are quite sensible conversations all the time about it, but they don't generally start with someone talking about vaccines being icky and upsetting, a rant about anti-vaxers, calling people a lost cause and branding them zealots.

It's all in the tone.

Nickelbabe: odd that you are worried about mice but not babies. Odd priorities.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 15:33:26

Arkestra: given this "Just that some people are very wrong, and that their wrongness has negative consequences for others (herd immunity etc)." I think you may need to read a little more widely, do the maths about herd immunity, look at papers concerning waning immunity, and ask yourself whether you too get flu vaccines every year and your own immunity checked regularly.

arkestra Sat 31-Aug-13 15:39:41

Crumbled: I get that you think I'm ignorant and selfish and view injured children as a lost cause gringringrin as I said I'm ok with that.

Sorry this is pressing your buttons but the evidence on vaccinations is not in your favour and I can't even pretend I think the facts are finely balanced. I think someone with less investment will find the book interesting and informative.

Now if you'll excuse me I have sick children to beat smile

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 15:41:36

Your grins are extraordinary. Why?

When you come back - I asked whether you get your immunity checked regularly and have a flu vaccine every year.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 15:49:38

I think the answer must be no. You were a risk yourself to others because you didn't get your immunity checked. Worth considering.

arkestra Sat 31-Aug-13 15:51:20

Crumbled: The smileys are to indicate that, given your postings on this thread, I am finding it hard to take you seriously. I have no more intention of debating vax with you on MN than I would debate evolution with a creationist or geography with a member of the Flat Earth Society grin

If you are genuinely interested in my point of view, read the book.

Tell you what though, I'm happy to read any single book you recommend. I find it as hard to figure out how you got to your position as you clearly find me.

JakeBullet Sat 31-Aug-13 15:54:15

Sorry crumbledwalnuts but my Mum is a prime example of the fact that many people DO rely on what they read in the news when making decisions. The MMR debacle proved exactly that, people became scared.

My son is autistic and my Mum STILL asks if I am sure it was not caused by the MMR. No it wasn't as my DS did not have the MMR until age 4 for a number of reasons by which time the autism was apparent. And that's with her experience of a child who nearly does from what is a preventable condition with vaccine.

YOU sound intelligent and well able to read various opinions and scientific stuff. Not everyone does this or has that ability and a scary newspaper headline WILL influence people.

I don't give a stuff what decisions people come to regarding vaccines but it is silly to think everyone is able to read and process however many scientific papers it takes. Most are influenced by what their HCP says and what they read in the news.

JakeBullet Sat 31-Aug-13 15:55:10

DIED not DOES.bloody predictive text.

LaVolcan Sat 31-Aug-13 15:56:17

If you are genuinely interested in my point of view, read the book.

What exactly is your point of view though? Is it, immunity wanes, and we need to be told about it, or is it anti-vaccers are completely wrong.

None of the real 'anti-vaccers' (i.e.those who totally disbelieve in vaccines), have appeared on this thread.

nickelbabe Sat 31-Aug-13 16:01:39

Crumbled
"Nickelbabe: odd that you are worried about mice but not babies. Odd priorities"

I'm worried about all animals, but the main worry about using MICE and not HUMAN TISSUE is that MICE are not HUMANS - they don't have the same genetics, and they don't react the same fucking way that humans do! that's why I pulled at your argument. That's why I cited the most common painkiller we have as killing another SPECIES of animal.

It makes no sense at all to test vaccines etc on other animals.
even monkeys, which match our DNA by the largest amount, react differently to some things.

nickelbabe Sat 31-Aug-13 16:03:28

oh, god, yes, a lot of people take what the newspapers say as gospel - my ex's mum believes absolutely everything she read in the Daily Mail, even when it makes no logical sense.

JakeBullet Sat 31-Aug-13 16:03:32

I am not especially anti or pro vaccine, I think we make decisions based on what info we have available at the time. In my Mum's case she had her info from newspapers and TV and it scared her.

My info came from the Internet and from research papers. This told me that my son was unlikely to have any issues as a result of immunisations. I got them done and all was fine....the MMR was however done much later because I was ill and moved around a bit.

Much to DS's disgust he has been called for an MMR booster recently....he is 10 and not impressed grin.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 16:04:43

Being nasty again Arkestra. I've asked you some sensible questions. Why don't you answer them?

You were a risk to others because you didn't get your immunity checked. Have you considered that?

Sorry to hear about your Mum nickelbabe. The rest of the world isn't your mum though.

arkestra Sat 31-Aug-13 16:06:04

LaVolcan: 2 points really.

The less interesting one is that WC vaccine more or less wears off by your 40's. Worth knowing but not important in itself.

But it woke me up to the whooping cough increase in S England. Is dying down now but many kids died. 14 in last 3 months of 2012 alone. Makes you think etc. in my case it made me have a look for a good book summarising the case for vaccines and post it on MumsNet. I'm just a 40-something who caught a cough (boo hoo). But WC kills babies and the more WC vaccination we get the fewer babies it kills. That's obviously more interesting than an adult whooping it up.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 16:06:31

I don't think the OP has thought this through tbh. Read a book, thinks know everything, suddenly evangelical, get on mumsnet, laugh when people disagree.

Crumbledwalnuts Sat 31-Aug-13 16:07:34

xpost and quite an ironic one at that

of course it's important to know you aren't immune - you were a risk to others

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