What to ask when looking at horses to buy?

[frostyfingers]

OK, I'm now looking for a new horse and although it's exciting it's also quite scary.
I'm after a hunter/all rounder and my list of questions so far is:

1. How long have you had it, why are you selling?
   
2. Any vices, good to shoe, box & clip?
   
3. Vaccinations & teeth up to date?
   
4. Will it go out alone, does it nap/buck/rear?
   
5. How does it handle in the stable and field?
   
6. How much hunting has it done, will it queue, wait for you to get on, stand quietly?
   
7. What other experience does it have - showing, jumping, fun rides....
   

What have I missed - it's so easy when you see them to decide you like the temperament and the colour and forget the important stuff!

Any ideas would be helpful!

[Butkin]

1. and catch and load.
   

1. will it suit your ability ie if you are a novice or an experienced hunting person you'd need completely different types of horse. The seller should know who it would suit.
   

1. Has it ever suffered from unsoundness?
   

10. Does it need stabling or can it live out (of course this would depend on your own circumstances).

[PlanetEarth]

Health - ever had the vet, and what for?

I like to know where they are in the herd.

How often is horse being ridden currently? What happens if horse isn't ridden for a couple of weeks while you're on holiday, do they become a nightmare?

[Butkin]

As PlanetEarth says the most important questions is "is it fit". If a hunter isn't fit at this time of the year you'd have to wonder why (although perhaps the rider is injured etc which would be a good reason).

[frostyfingers]

Well I've possibly found one - ex p2p, whipped in all last season, hunted with field 2 years prior to that. Roughed off now as too busy with pointers, last ridden properly in November but been hacking - clean limbed, no apparent external blemishes (had a good feel, He seemed very gentle natured, happy for me to put rugs on and off, put head collar on and pull his ears and generally poke and prod, he lifted his feet nicely for me and trotted up well. I'm now waiting for the frost to come out of the ground for a test drive.....

He hasn't been lame, and has only had the vet for his jabs and teeth. I will check his passport next time round.

He stopped pointing as he jumped too slowly, and went over rather than through the birch, which sounds ok to me! He was doing flatwork and small shows last year and is eligble for the ROR classes, and has show jumped. I've seen lots of pictures of him doing all of this! Sounds almost too good to be true, so it will be interesting to see what he's like out and about.

[cedmonds]

I will alwways get them vetted.

[Butkin]

How interesting Frostyfingers - I'm very jealous! Any chance you could give us his name as I've got a complete set of Mackenzie and Harris and could look him up for you.

[frostyfingers]

Master Shambles 2002 by Shambo - I'm not sure how often he ran, but was pretty dire by all accounts!

[Butkin]

He is a 2002 bay gelding by Shambo out of Apple Anthem by True Song. His grandam, Windfall, won 2 points and placed 8 times including a Hunter Chase. Apple Anthem was a poor maiden but has been a good mare breeding the winners of 36 points and Old Applejack won 14 races under rules.

In August 2006 he was sold to Mr L River-Bulliely for 4,000 Guineas but he never ran under rules.

In 2007 he ran in 3 point to points and was pulled up every time for Ray Styles with the Herefordshire - never going more than 2 miles. He was apparently "shambolic" and was too much like his dam - spending too much time in the air (which is what you've described!).

In 2008 he ran in 5 points finishing unplaced, 4th, 5th, 5th and pulled up. Apparently he was an unenthusiastic racehorse who jumped too big and failed to shine when ridden by a stronger jockey and equipped with cheekpieces for his last run (in name of Mr Styles and Mrs S Caffall).
According to Mackenzie and Harris he was then retired to go eventing.

However he did reappear in 2009 and ran 3 times - 7th and two pulled ups. By this stage of his career he'd only beaten one horse in 11 starts.

He hasn't run since.

At least you know he seems a safe conveyance!

[frostyfingers]

Fascinating - about as dire as they told me! Actually since I wasn't even going to look at TB's I'm quite reassured, I don't want or need to go especially fast and jumping slowly suits me fine. The trainer, who still has him, said that one moment they thought he'd got the hang of jumping and galloping and then the next realised he didn't!

I'm going for a test drive on Saturday so it will be interesting to see what he's really like.

Thanks very much - I bet the entries in the programmes when he ran were good to read!

[Saggyoldclothcatpuss]

I'm quite cynical. Id want to see it caught in from the field, led in, tacked up, ridden by owner, ridden by me, and fed. Teeth checked for uneven wear from windsucking, or repetitive habits, and vetted by a vet of my own choosing. And I'd want a trial period.
I'd not trust what I was told, I'd want to see/try it doing as much as possible in person. I also wouldn't necessarily take it home straight away, I'd visit two or three times to try it and see if I really liked it.
Also, what is it eating? It may be a saint, when unfit, and living purely on grass, but fit and full of oats it may be a different kettle of fish. Can you speak to anyone independent who has seen it's behaviour out hunting?

[frostyfingers]

It'll definitely have a 5 stage vetting if I do like it enough. I have asked for it to be out when I go on Sat so I can catch, clean and tack up. When I handled it in the stable it was fine (head collar on, rugs on and off) and I picked up its feet, and ran my hands all over and under and round his face and ears. I have had one visit, and if I have a good ride and want to take it further will be there for the vetting.

I have asked about hunting and the owner and had favourable reports and have also asked about diet (pasture mix and hay). I'm told he is greedy and a good doer, I don't want to be stuffing food endlessly into something! They have said that obviously if he is on more protein based food he will be hotter which goes for any horse.

It's difficult, because of course they're not going to say anything otherwise so you just have to gauge whether you trust them. Luckily I know several people who know both the owner and the trainer where the horse currently is, and have not had any negatives. He's in my area which is rural and if someone is dodgy then we'd know about it - you can't keep anything secret round here!

The trial thing is a minefield, so I'm not sure about that, but I was going to ask what would happen if if it's a disaster, and see what they say

Thank you for all your help, it's too easy to get carried away and think it will be perfect because you like the character.

[Backinthebox]

A bit late to this, I know, but if you have been to see the horse and like it, you should ask for hunting references from the master or secretary of the hunt he has been hunting with. Even if he has only been a few times they will remember him.

I would ask to see him hunting too. I have just sold a hunter, and offered the opportunity for him to be seen with either a foxhound pack or one of a choice of 2 drag packs. Subject to having seen them ride him in a non-hunting situation, I also offered potential buyers the opportunity to swap onto him after seeing him for an hour out hunting, such was my faith in him. We also took him for buyers to an outdoor school to show jump and to a cross country course to see him perform there. I let them hack him out under supervision. One thing I would no do is let them take him home for a trial. It is too fraught with potential pitfalls. I think you will find that not many sellers will allow you to take him home for a trial (although some will, just don't think there is something wrong with the horse if the seller doesn't want to see several thousand pounds worth of their prize horse disappear into the sunset for free with someone they only met 5 minutes ago!)

The other things I think are very important are to see everything that you want this horse to do. Do you want to be able to load it by yourself? Then see it do it. Clip it alone? See it. Etc. For me I wanted to see my new horse load alone, hack alone, and that was about it. It's a 4 year old so I will have to train everything else into it - no point in asking to see the horse do something it doesn't know how to do.

Other than that, horse buying is a game of luck sometimes. Take a knowledgable friend with you to haul you back if it is a pretty but completely unsuitable horse, and go back and look a couple of times at it.

[frostyfingers]

I had a good session on Saturday, and am feeling pretty postive about this horse.

I caught him easily, he was fine about grooming and tacking - a little fidgety but nothing major - he does nibble a bit, but that's because they give him sweeties, which I don't!

We hacked out with one other horse, and met lots of traffic, including tractors and there were lots of things blowing about and rustling as it was incredibly windy. He was very good, even when the other horse was being spooky and felt very safe. He went on away from the other horse and then waited whilst she went away from him - again he was calm.

When we got back to the yard, he was schooled and cantered in the field for me, then jumped various jumps including timber, tyres and coloured poles. Then it was my go (I was v nervous as it was an experienced audience!). I walked, trotted and cantered and did some circles with him then jumped. He was quite lively but again, sensible with it and jumped beautifully - I left him to find his strides, and he wasn't pulling or rushing. I then cantered him at speed round the field and pulled him up easily, turned him away from the gate and walked away from it, cantered him down the hill, walked past the fences and then opened and shut a couple of gates. I also got off and on again to see if he would stand and he did so all in all I was very pleased. I was impressed with how he handled the wind and rain, plus there were other horses being schooled over pt-pt fences and it was generally very busy in the yard.

I haven't seen him hunting, but the trainer is the whipper in and used him all last season - I have checked this so feel ok. I agree about going on trial - it's just too risky for both parties.

They have said that I can go back and have another ride this week if I would like to, and they will set up the trailer for me to load and unload. I've seen his passport and vacc record, and been given the name of his current vet to ring and check, and have also been told that if I do buy him, and it doesn't work out then they will either help to solve any problems or take him back. They have asked lots of questions about me and my set up and if I buy, asked to visit.

It all seems a bit too good to be true, but I felt very comfortable with him and them at all times (I have worked with the owner on a non horsey thing ages ago, which I didn't realise until I met him again). I'm under no pressure from them, in fact they don't seem in any hurry at all, so once I've had another ride and assuming it goes well I'll arrange for a vetting.

Fingers crossed it doesn't all go pear shaped!