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A muzzle or what do we do?

15 replies

Dunwhingin · 21/07/2014 22:03

This is causing a lot of family tension at present.
my parents have two jack russels, one is the old fashioned short legged barrel type who is getting on a bit, she has always been a dear little gentle dog, very gentle and much loved
the second is a whippet cross JR, 2 years old and is showing all the bad traits of both breeds sadly. She has been extremely difficult to train (they have had dogs all of their lives, many different breeds but always had a JR)
the younger has now taken against the older dog and today tried to kill her; she nipped past my father and had her by the neck and mauled her enough to leave tears requiring several stitches. my father has also been bitten trying to separate them and has been for a tetanus shot and a check by the GP.
Both dogs have recently been for their annual check ups, both are healthy so we don't think this is about a sicker dog being usurped in their 'pack'. We also don't think the younger is physically ill, she is well exercised as DF has retired and she gets two good ( a few miles worth) walks a day as well as plenty of games with balls and toys in and outdoors.
The younger dog has suddenly turned against the older, what used to be play growling now has more menace, she killed one of their cats two weeks ago, attacked a delivery man and is showing aggression more and more.
Is a muzzle the answer? Will further professional training help stop this? I have always believed that a dog is the product of its owner's behaviour; training, structure, love, comfort, games, exercise etc all go to be part of the lovely relationship that we should have with our wonderful canine friends.
She gets shut in a utility room when my 4 year old visits now as they are now unwilling to trust her (thank god, I don't at all) which I know is unfair on the dog and must be further adding to the issues as she is left out.
What should we do now? Any advice will be gratefully received, she can be such a sweet, funny elastic hound and I cannot believe that this is happening, my mother is so upset.

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JadeJ123 · 22/07/2014 00:10

Has the younger one been neutered? If not that would help its behaviour, I'd nip it's behaviour in the bud with a professional trainer as it could get a lot worse. A muzzle will just stop the biting but the dog could still injure the dog without the muzzle. Best of luck Smile

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AlpacaLypse · 22/07/2014 00:21

Flowers for all of you, this sounds awful.

It sounds like younger dog is quite simply not happy with current situation. Have your parents called in a reputable behaviourist?

I have to say I'd have been thinking about rehoming at the very least after the cat killing incident, let alone the other stuff.

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stampymumknows · 22/07/2014 00:27

I am not a dog expert at all. However, I do really feel for your mum, and all of you, as we have had a similar situation. We cannot rehome ours and some of the professionals we consulted were questionable. Honestly, keeping both is not happy for anyone especially the dogs. I'd rehome if you can't get a good behaviourist - some use methods which make aggression worse.

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Booboostoo · 22/07/2014 06:12

It sounds like a complicated issue and your parents need professional help to assess the dog and advise them on the best way forward. Try the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors website for a professional near you.

I am not sure a muzzle would help because from what you say the dog would have to wear it all the time. They are more helpful with specific, targeted issues. However it may be a temporary solution to keep everyone safe. Is it possible to keep the two dogs apart until you get help? And keep the young dog away from visitors?

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PitchSlapped · 22/07/2014 06:21

I would have had it put down after the cat incident let alone attacking the delivery man and now trying to kill the other dog. If it was a serious sustained attack by a dog that is difficult to train I think it would be a dangerous dog to have around while your parents struggle to regain control and you would never really trust it again. What if it nipped past your dad and got to your 4 year old? Its already shown its willing to attack people with the delivery man.

I'm really shocked that someone would suggest rehoming this dog

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Uptheairymountain · 22/07/2014 07:31

Completely agree with Pitchslapped.

I'm also concerned by the fact that it is walked without a muzzle. This dog is a danger to people and should not really be in public places at all, let alone without a muzzle. What happens when it goes for someone?

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Whoknowswhocares · 22/07/2014 08:58

First things first.
A thorough vet check complete with blood tests to rule out any physical causes.

If that is clear, then your vet should refer you to a qualified behaviourist for assessment.
Until then, keep the dog muzzled everywhere except for the home and keep her separated from the other animals whilst in it.

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SpicyPear · 22/07/2014 10:10

As Booboo has said the issues here are quite complex. From your post, it seems as if there are three separate areas that are an issue:

  1. Aggression towards other resident dog - unfortunately it is not that unusual for a young female to have problems with an older bitch once the younger one reaches adolescence. Unfortunately when bitches fight it tends to be nasty and it tends to escalate. Immediate action is to keep the dogs separated.

  2. Killing the cat - that is unlikely to be what we would call aggression and much more likely to be related to prey drive. Some sighthounds and terriers can live happily with cats. Some are not and never will be cat safe as their strong instinct is to see cats as a target for hunting. That instinct comes from a very different place to aggression - it's a separate biological process. Living with cats from a puppy is no guarantee of an adult dog that is safe around cats, particularly where the dog's prey drive is strong. Immediate action would be to create separate areas for the dog and cats to prevent her having an opportunity to hurt them. Some sighthound owners for example have downstairs dogs and upstairs cats.

  3. Aggression towards delivery man - without knowing the circumstances it is impossible to comment, but a lot of aggression towards people stems from fear. It may be quite specific to strangers coming onto the property so she may pose no particular danger to people out on walks etc. Or it could be more generalised. Immediate action is to ensure she does not have access to people entering the property, for example putting a baby gate across a room and putting her in there when the door bell rings.

    As a first port of call I would contact an APBC behaviourist as soon as possible for a full assessment of what is motivating this behaviour and how remediable it is. Depending how far things have gone it can be extremely difficult and sometimes impossible to reintegrate two fighting bitches. There are people with the skills to take on and work with a dog like this but it is not an easy ask. It would be very wrong to pass them off onto someone without knowledge and experience of these types of behavioural problems. If you are anywhere near the Reading area, Kris Glover at Pets in Practise is excellent and very experienced with reactive terriers.
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SpicyPear · 22/07/2014 10:11

Oh and any good behaviourist will require a full vet check to rule out physical causes before the consultation.

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Dunwhingin · 22/07/2014 10:38

thank you all for your help, it is reassuring
she is on a farm so never walked near the general public, more discussion has revealed that she has bitten several people over the last year, most of them known to her. She was neutered when 6 months old so that is ruled out

My parents are taking her to our local vet - a canine specialist to ask their advice this morning, she has already had health checks to rule out physical causes and they have invested in gates, segregation and training with a local trainer of good reputation to try and solve the aggressive behaviour. She bit my father twice yesterday, he is on warfarin so it has health implications. I think that she will not come hoe with them and they will seek a new owner who can give her training and probably more exercise which she probably needs. They don't want to take the chance that my dd will be next which is a relief frankly

I do agree about the prey instinct, that definitely comes into it, we cannot identify the point in which her behaviour changed towards the cats. One day it was play (they used to sleep in the same basket) and the next it was kill.

its so sad, they really feel they have failed her

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SpicyPear · 22/07/2014 11:26

Ah I'm sorry to hear she has such a long bite history. I'm sure they've done their best but it's such a shame she has been put in the position of being able to repeat the behaviour.

Just a couple of points re your post. Firstly, many vets know very very little about dog behaviour or have very outdated knowledge, so they generally aren't the best people to consult about behavioural issues. A bit like seeing a surgeon for treatment of a mental health problem. Secondly, in cases of aggression you need a behaviourist rather than a trainer. It might seem like semantics but training as in teaching behaviours is very different to modification of a dog's emotional responses in order to change non-conditioned behaviours.

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Booboostoo · 22/07/2014 11:54

That is not good news. No one can or should try to assess a dog over the internet though. I would agree with Spicy that a good behaviourist is the way to go. If they can identify the root of the problem sometimes it is surprising how easy it is to resolve. There are also some specialist vets who deal with behavioural problems but you usually need a referral. I would also be a bit weary of relying solely on a vet or trainer, they don't usually have the qualifications or experience to deal with difficult cases.

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Dunwhingin · 22/07/2014 12:45

The vet is a canine specialist, they also have a directory of trainers/behaviourists who they refer clients to, they have a great reputation
She is going to be rehomed

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Booboostoo · 23/07/2014 05:49

Good luck with finding her a new home.

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LividofLondon · 25/07/2014 15:23

I hope she is only going to be rehomed after her behaviour has been assessed by a member of APBC and it's deemed curable Confused

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