Why do teachers baulk at saying DC are lazy?

[duchesse]

I ran into one of my son's teachers from GCSE at a social a few weeks ago. She has since retired and wanted to know how he'd done in his GCSE in her subject. I told her what he'd got, and then suffixed it by saying that he was a lazy little toerag which is why he had not achieved what we all knew he was capable of achieving. She looked slightly embarrassed, and said "Well, you can say that!" Clearly she thought it too, but couldn't bring herself to come out and agree with me despite being retired now.

When did it stop becoming acceptable to tell parents that you think their child is easily capable of more and is, in fact, just plain bone idle? I really think a lot of parents and children might benefit from knowing that more work is expected from their children than is being provided. Assuming that they are just not able to do it is possibly letting them down.

But then I an remember being on the other side of the problem as a teacher, and having parents totally stick their fingers in their ears about it and blame "spiritedness", "clash of personalities" "lack of ability" and a raft of other things for what is actually their child's indolence. My husband's favourite school report from the 70s states for one subject "The idle has feet of clay".

[cory]

I have read dh's school reports from the 1970s and they are full of what is very evidently euphemisms for 'idle layabout'. Never spelled out, always couched in the most gentle language. The sad thing is, I don't think his parents ever got the message, so it came as a total surprise to dh when he failed his A-levels.

Otoh I have seen some pretty unfair comments on school reports of more recent years (e.g. sarky comments about attendance, after the school had actually ok'd a holiday for the child to spend time with terminally ill mum).

So I think it's to do with individuals. 'Could try harder' as a euphemism for 'lazy sod' was certainly a bit of a joke even in the sixties and seventies.

[Fennel]

I don't like hearing children called lazy, so many parents say their children are lazy, and to me it seems more that the children are just not motivated to fulful the parental agenda. I'm lazy on things I don't enjoy, but very motivated for other things. Most children I know are the same. People work harder when they have a reason to work - if they enjoy it or want an end result. to call children lazy is, IMO, just a lazy way of viewing a child not just going along with what all the adults around them are wanting them to do.

[duchesse]

Hmm, yes. Ie your 16 yo spending hours a day playing computer games instead of doing the school work he's meant to be doing. Of course, when he leaves school with no qualifications he'll have plenty of time to play computer games. I'm rather hoping though that he'll be able to take a full and active part in working life, and for that he needs to develop a work ethic cos he won't even get a job as a casual labourer if he can't stick to the job for longer than 10 mn. I view it as my job to help him extend his attention span and staying power, not allow to vegetate at the level of a two year old for ever. He is very bright and the only difference between him and the guy at school who does stunningly well (although I do not expect my son to do as well as him as he is not naturally academically inclined unlike other boy) is motivation. I'd be doing him a disservice if I didn't try to improve his motivation to work. Unless I were happy for him to be a layabout for ever, which seriously I am not.

Sorry Fennel, but I really don't agree with you there. If his natural inclination were to go and whittle beautiful things, or set up a rare breed sheep farm or paint, or any number of other things that even have the potential to turn into an activity on which you can survive in adulthood, then I wouldn't have a problem. His natural inclination however is to do things that will never become proper jobs. They are pastimes that have taken the place of what should be his focus at the moment. Sometimes, you have to fit in just a bit.

[Fennel]

no, I know people aren't likely to agree with me on this.

I do limit my children's computer and screen time quite strictly but they are younger. not sure what I'll do at teenage age on that. But even so, if we think it's lazy to spend too long on the computer what are we all doing hanging around on mumsnet? When we should be doing something more achievement oriented? Our children are only human, and like us they find it easier to waste time on the computer than get things done. is that lazy? or just human nature?

my DP would argue that he and his friends spent their teenage years immersed in computer games and most of them ended up with good degrees and well-paid jobs. dp has a 1st and a phd from a top uni and has worked in the computer games industry so he sees the positive side of computer games obsession.

[jeee]

I've heard rather a lot of children described as lazy by their parents, when it's simply that they're less intelligent than their parents want to admit - it's more socially acceptable to be idle than thick. Not having a go at the OP, btw.

[duchesse]

Ah, I may appear to be here all the time, but I'm actually only here in breaks. I'm self-employed and work from home so am at my computer from 9-6 or often later. So actually I am managing to be productive despite being on MN! I do agree with you to a certain extent about your husband. But the market has evolved massively since we were young- your husband is probably of the generation that is writing these alternative life types games for the poor saps now hooked on them. When I was growing up (don't know how old you are) we had Tank Pong, Pacman and Space invaders. That was it. However addictive they may have been, they were really not complex. You tired of them eventually. Modern games are so complex that they have the real potential to take the place of real life even for an active mind (apart from eating and going to the loo, and well, that's what Pot Noodle was invented for and oh my god I have just had a vision of my son in a vest and underpants at 35, still playing bloody Dead Frontier..)

[duchesse]

jeee- I agree with you. My son is unfortunately very bright. He is not academic, but he did manage to get 2 A, 5 As 2 Bs and a C without doing a stroke of work. His coursework was invariably dreadful, but he got A in most of his exams. Geography was an A overall despite getting a D on a major piece of coursework in year 10 and various Cs along the way. Just to say that he must have done Ok on the exam to get an A overall despite those setbacks.

[Fennel]

Yes I do know the distinction, dp goes on about how they had to write their own games, back in the day. Though I don't think he and his friends ever did get tired of it. all that time at the university Dungeons and Dragons club, they spent years doing that.

and I know computer games are scarily addictive. as is loitering on chat forums.

but I do think motivation has to come from the inside and it's one of the key things I try and teach my children, that it's really up to them how hard they work, that it's their future and choices not mine. One of mine is berated at school for not working very hard, and the teachers try and rope me into making her work harder. But I know too many adults who were high achievers, driven by their parents' wishes rather than their own urges, and a lot of them were quite screwed up emotionally (eating disorders and self harm all round) and it makes me reluctant to push my children.

[duchesse]

Parent-teachers evening today and to a man (they were all male teachers) the chorus was "You could do better". His Chemistry teacher actually physically laid his head on the table, got quite carried away, said "It's like beating my head against a brick wall!!" and "You are an enigma!". My son has had assessments in Chemistry this year with results ranging from 18% (effing abysmal) to 83% (rather good). I am at my wits' end, and so are his teachers it seems.

[wastwinsetandpearls]

If a child is lazy I will say so, as would most of my colleagues.

[Heated]

Agree, you'll never hear a teacher say he's thick, it just isn't in the vocabulary, unlike in my father's school reports of yesteryear which are blunt and succinct. Possibly the closest a teacher will get to it is, "he finds this subject difficult/challenging."

"Not working as hard as he could/more application" = lazy.

Most honest school report I've seen:

He couldn't do any worse.

Subsequent year's report:

I was wrong.

[Macforme]

I totally agree with you Duchesse..
I have four children , and of the older three.. aged 18, 17 16 the middle child is LAZY. He is academically able as his sisters, but the real difference in their school results and his was/is the application of hard work! We encourage and support their learning in the same way..but DS scraped thro his GSCES by sheer luck and some last minute bullying by me (didn't let him out til he did one past paper a day..he hated me til results day when he passed with C grades in everything) He was capable of higher grades, but always did the absolute minimum.. I never saw homework!
His sisters are both industrious..and enjoyed doing their very best and the massive gap in attitude has always been obvious... ditto the results at exam time!
Parent's evenings have always been a scary affair.. teachers love him but find his lack of effort so frustrating....he's now doing media Btec in 6th form but is only doing it because he can't think of anything else to do...

My youngest has severe LDs and autism but still TRIES his hardest..

I don't believe it's a 'boy thing' either.. in my lovely but frustrating son's case, it's a 'can't be arsed' thing!

[duchesse]

I agree Macforme. My next child down (a girl) is extremely diligent and has been doing at least 2 hours of homework every night since year 7 (up to 2.5/3 now she's in year 10). She is predicted nothing less than As, although she is no brighter than my son. My son, who is two years ahead of her at school, has consistently ridiculed her for doing so much work. He freely admits that he does not look as good on paper as he should, yet seems unwilling to put in the effort. He has a fairly high opinion of his abilities as well as his teachers, but just doesn't seem to understand that he has to bloody work at things. His Chemistry told him (quite a refreshingly outspoken chap really) that there were people in his class who were not as able but were doing better because they were Doing Some Work.

This evening, he came in and did 2 hours of homework of his own accord. Who knows how long till I have to start bullying him again? It's just so wearing and frustrating.