thebody - how lovely to hear of dcs actually working during a gap year and not swanning off for a year "travelling" like most of them think is their right!

my attitude is not to sweat the small stuff - and this is mainly small stuff. The teenage brain is different and they are programmed to a different time pattern (seriously, I've read the book).

If I'm in bed before them they musn't wake me up. They can sleep in as long as they can manage and I'll even keep quiet until after 10a.m as long as they keep quiet when I'm in bed. They may have to get their own breakfast.

One of my friends is fond of saying "what did your last slave die of?" when he thinks they ask too much - feel free to use on teenagers expecting breakfast to be made .

Mumonthenet - sounds a brilliant plan. Would you mind popping round here tomorrow and doing the same?

estar and everyone else - interesting posts.

I think it's true that it's not a good idea to leave them to totally self-regulate. Perhaps one of the advantages of giving them lists/responsibilities is that you are also giving them tools with which to learn how to self-regulate. It's about learning how to life-balance, which after all they're going to need in the future.

DD1 did a month long work experience last summer (at 16). It was extremely hard work and she was completely knackered. I was glad when she finished and could have the next month off, but it was also a great insight for her into the real world out there! And she saved enough to buy herself a good camera, not much but still a payoff!

So now I'm thinking:

Communicate my needs in terms of household help without turning into martyr/screaming banshee.

Get dc's to volunteer for chores on my list for duration of summer holidays.

Specify chores which are to be done by a certain time each day, and others which are flexible.

Agree with dc's a time when computer and tv will go off at night. (I'm still not sure how to impose this one with dc3 who's only 12 and thinks she's entitled to same privileges as elder siblings!)

totally agree with Huff.. I did this as a teen and my kids did too.
They are now 19, and 18. Oldest has just completed a gap year of WORKING full time, not wandering round the world wasting our cash and is off to uni in September with lots already saved.
Number 2 is also going to do this and both have worked part time from 16.
Feel as long as school work and assignments are in on time and they DONT MAKE A NOISE when we are trying to sleep its fine.
Wish i was 17 again....

luckily ds has a paper round, so it is only sundays that we have the sleeping all hours, last sunday we couldnt get out of the house til really late.
however the novelty of the paper round might wear off, it has only been a couple of weeks, come the summer holidays.

Good luck, Starkadder. Teenage years seem a long way off for you but I don't know where the time has gone. Having said that, I absolutely love this age - great conversation and company.

I get to be a step-granny this year so it's going to be interesting to see whether my DSS is as strict as I thought he was!

Boden - see what you mean - and totally agree that it's important to say what you think rather than do the whole martyr thing.

I think I will have to wait and see how I react when my baby is a teenager..! I suppose that it is possible that my "ah, just let them lie, they only have this chance in life" attitude may dissipate somewhat, haha

I suppose I think that the most important thing is respect and consideration - and if consideration to one's parents means getting up at a reasonable time, because that's what's important to them, then teenagers should be old enough to start learning that.

Starkadder - yes, lovely though it was to lollop (and I'd like to now, too), I think it probably didn't help me appreciate what it was like for my parents who worked full-time then came home to see me sprawling on the sofa (I was very well read, though ). Also, I was hopeless as a flat-sharer in later life cos I had no idea how to do anything. I probably didn't sleep beyond 10 whereas DD1 would happily stay in bed till 1pm (and does when I'm not around). I think they sometimes use staying in bed as an excuse not to pull their weight around the house.

I do think part of bringing up children is trying to produce an adult you're proud of and consideration for the people you live with is part of that. At 15 and 13 I think it's reasonable to expect some help and I insisted on the same when DSS was their age. I try to get my girls to do their bit and think I might adopt some of the other ideas on here - lists in particular - so I don't turn into a perpetual nag. I remember reading an article by Nigella Lawson about her mother's martyred act and I was aware of my own mum having one - I don't want to blight their teenage years by doing the same thing. It doesn't achieve anything and just makes everyone miserable.

Funnily enough, we also live in a very tall house and part of the difficulty of getting DD1 out of bed is negotiating a narrow, windy staircase to her room!

It's interesting that this started off as a thread about sleeping late but there's all sorts of connected issues - the fact that they need more sleep, helping around the house, staying on MSN all night etc.

This is an interesting thread.
Boden - am interested to know - do you mean that you think it was a bad thing that you were allowed to lollop (brilliant word btw) around reading all day?

My baby is very little still so I have no experience of parenting teenagers, but I do remember keeping those hours myself. I'd still like to go to bed late and get up late and then lollop around reading all day now (although not AS late) but I can't - I agree with the poster who said that it's the only time in your life when that timetable is really OK. Carpe diem & all that.

However, that said, we lived in a very tall house, so my mother slept quite far away from the living room, and we weren't likely to wake her with the TV/nintendo ;-) Certainly, I think teenagers staying up late should be considerate and helpful - they shouldn't be crashing around waking you up and they should pull their weight with tidying up/washing up etc.

When husband and I were staying with his best friend a couple of years ago I remember his DD being 15 and allowed to stay up until all hours of the night watching TV (sometimes up until 4am). I couldn't help thinking that she still needed a bed-time even though she was on holidays. I don't think she even had any chores / part-time work to go to which made her get out of bed.

She is now doing her a-levels and has got herself into really bad sleeping habits. I wonder if there is a correlation between being up that late and her bad sleeping habits now.

I don't begrudge mine the odd hours because they have to be up very early normally. They are very good about not making a noise after we have gone to bed and I never hear them. I quite like them sleeping in because it gives me peace and quiet for a while. They have to be up for lunch and clear up their own mess.

I don't have teenagers yet but here's my view on it - my mum worked once we were in teens, and so we could go to bed and get up whenever I liked, and I really don't think it did me much good! I have always been rubbish at self-regulating/self-discipline. I truly mean to get things done but I am so easily distracted that I can spend a whole day procrastinating and feel rubbish at the end of it.

I know I would have moaned about it, but I wonder if some kind of responsibility or guidelines had been set for me that it would have helped me to focus and motivated me to be better organised. Like, if I'd have known I could only sleep in till 10am every day, I would have had to go to bed earlier than 3am!

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it geared me up well for later life - having a job, and then having to regulate a home not just for yourself, but with several people in it that you are responsible for too. I had kids young and it was a huge battle for me to learn how to take responsibility for how I spent my time.

It depends on the character of your child - if you know they can work darn hard the rest of the time, then I would agree its nice for them to be free from responsibility while they can, but if they're not good at being self-disciplined, then give them a bit of help!

I don't look back on my long summer holidays as an amazing opportunity to rest - I see them as a huge wasted opportunity where I could have achieved so many things that now I would only dream of having the time to do.

julien, interesting post and yes agree with your points. Will look at that site in a min.

I am pretty laid back, I reckon, with mine (would they say the same? errr...will have to ask em!) but I did find last hols THEY seemed to be getting a bit too laid back for my comfort

It's so great to have everyone's take on this. Any more?

julienoshoes v interesting that is how I see it.I tell ds what is going on and I try and let him react to it.It does seem to work.If I say something needs done if he gets up at midday thats when it gets done!

Ours were home educated, so based at home all through their teenage years.

We didn't impose any formal work, they can and did follow their own interests.
They can and did self regulate-and the two who still live at home still do.
They often go to bed after us, I remind them of the time I have to be up for work (often 6am) and they are very considerate.

I remind them sometimes, that I could do with more help around the house-and they will do whatever I ask-not always immediately, but it will be done if they say they will do it.

When they have to be up for something, they will take themselves to bed at a reasonable time.
Today for instance ds (22) was in court as a witness at 10am, so yesterday washed and pressed his clothes and got himself off to bed and then up in plenty of time to make himself presentable.
DD(16) had an audition at college for a music course so she got herself off to bed and then up early to organise herself.

We work on consensual living -finding a solution that makes everyone happy.
We wouldn't impose any rules that are hard and fast-in fact no rules at all, just promote mutual respect.
Up to them if they stay awake through the night and sleep next day-as long as they don't disturb me, I'm happy.

Worked so far for us-even had sons friends come back to the house after going to the pub to celebrate his birthday earlier in the month.
I went off to bed having left a notice up, reminding them to 'please leave through the back door as I have to leave for work at 6am'-and they did just that and I didn't hear a peep! (Didn't leave any mess either)

I'm a big believer in teens needing different sleep patterns.
Leave them alone and they will readjust eventually.

Good thread. DS2 only 11 and still an early riser but DS1, 13, would become nocturnal if I let him. The lounging around in PJs is normal here (or just boxers ).The clothes come off the minute they walk in from school and even when they eventually get dressed at a weekend or school holiday they quickly shed their clothes again.
I usually draw up a list of rules and jobs for the holidays and stick it on the fridge, along with a few ideas for treats or days out. I feel some element of control if I have a list. When they were little it was ridgidly adhered to but it has lost it's power now to some degree.

Mumeeee, so do we! They've both cooked from an early age so quite often it's one of their creations. I have been really lucky with them so far, just scared it's all going to end - give me teenagers rather than toddlers any time.

DD1 has two part-time jobs on top of doing a very long school journey, so I don't entirely begrudge her holiday sleep ins, but I don't think it does them any favours to grow up making no contribution (in time, not financial) to the family. I never did a thing at home, just lots of lollopping around reading so I do insist on a bit of bathroom cleaning, dishwasher unloading. Once again, they insist that none of their friends have to!

What annoys me most is sleeping in until noon then expecting food made.

I just make a real point now of saying make your own food and expect all dishes done etc before you go out and if its not done I make a point of asking why not.

Might be easier for me cos I am stepmum so if I ask "do you expect me to do it" they say not at all, but think they do expect their Dad to do it!

Lainey I'm with you...nothing enrages me more than my dd flolloping on the sofa wearing ALWAYS her ratty dressing gown while I tidy round her. I will be creating rules too.

Let him stay in bed all day if he likes.Eats with us and has a few days out with us which he doesn't object to at all.Switch off the wireless at about 10.30 apart from that he can do as he pleases within reason.Teenagers are like toddlers in many ways a pita but a lot of fun.

Boden tell your DD we eat together as a family everynight unless one of us is out somewhere. Also we tend to have Sunday lunch together. We are all often doing our own thing on a saturday.

our rules are that x box and or laptop is off at 9.30 school nights 10 pm non school nights.

homework and chores are done before social RL or virtual life takes over.

DS1 is responsable for afternoon dog walk, washing up every other night, keeping the pit( his bedroom) accessible for me to collect his washing.

He's 14 now.. so we have lessened the chores slightly , as he would do these for pocket money.. and told him if he needs money he needs a job. this allows ds2 to take over some of the chores and allow him to earn a little more pocket money.

DS1 has organised for a few jobs locally where he can do holiday cover for a couple of local shops. ( has to do it this way as he goes away half of the school hols and every other weekend to his dads miles away).

so baring in mind that sometimes he needs to get up in the morning for work in hols, he doesn't tend to do the up until 2am and stay in bed all afternoon.

maybe encourage a part time job they need to get up for?

I never worried what time mine got up at weekeknds or holidays, and my all time house rule was CLEAR UP AFTER YOURSELVES,never expected them to do housework type stuff, i only ended up doing it myself again after, but as long as they made their beds, washed up their plates and things, put their wshing in the washing bin, and left the bathroom as they found it, we all on quite well

Nope, facing my 30th birthday this year

But I remember sleeping very weirdly when I was growing. Aged 15 I went to bed around 3am and woke at noon for the whole summer holiday. I grew about a foot in height in a month and a half, and I just couldn't get to sleep any earlier. I used to lay in bed freaking out about my "insomnia". It would've relieved me greatly to have seen this study then.

I'm still a night owl, even when I have to get up a 6am the next day, I simply cannot get to sleep earlier than 12.30am.

Some people just have different schedules, it's not laziness.

You have to be age appropriate in what you expect from your kids. This new study explains to us that teenagers sleep weirdly for a developmental reason, and as parents we should make allowances for it.

Diz...are you a teenager?!

Have seen the report but do think there is a happy medium - a bit of compromise on both sides so we still have some family life.

Haven't you seen the study about teenagers actually needing to sleep odd hours? I'm sure it must rankle to have them sleeping lots when you're out working, but kids have hoildays for a reason, they're growing and need the rest!

BBC article

"There's a biological predisposition for going to bed late and getting up late. Clearly you can impose upon that even worse habits, but they are not lazy."

DD is only 13 so I probably haven't experienced the full horror, but in the main I let her lie in at the weekends for as long as she wants. It dooesn't bother me hugely if she emerges like the wreck of the hesperus at midday; if I have anything planned she would know about it and I would wake her.

I have got to the point where she can go to bed when she wants, I have a rule that the laptop is off by 10.30 (at the moment she abides by it without any nagging, expect this will change!). She also has her list of chores which she always does (clean bathroom every day, dust the sitting room, feed the cats, make sure her bedroom isn't a complete tip).

I remember as a teenager (actually I am the same now) that I needed to sleep a lot, and I have always been a nightowl myself.

I ring up from work at 12.00 to check that DS1 is out of bed.

Then I give him any chores he needs to do that day.

This summer he will be painting the outside of the house (evil laugh) in return for my funding a very expensive summer music school.

That would be regarded as cruel and inhumane in our house - they seem to eat constantly from the moment they wake. I'm hoping this doesn't signal another growth spurt cos I can't afford food AND clothes!

I have recently managed to force DS1 to forgo 'breakfast' at 12 and to wait for 'lunch' at 1pm. A very small but important victory.

I like your style, Mumonthenet! DD1 says that she doesn't know any families who eat together every night! I'm obviously cruel and heartless . Big advantage for her though is that she gets a glass of wine with meals at the weekend .

p.s. mine have to join us for family lunch (weekends) i.e. not allowed to sleep after 1pm!!

margot and boden, you've both taken words out of my mouth. They're living on different timescales to the rest of us...and yes then their body clocks are so out of kilter that they're no use to anyone during the day....and I don't really want them doing the chores I've set them at 2 o'clock in the morning!

Yep, and my youngest thinks if the older ones stay up late then she can too.

I love my kids and I don't mind them enjoying their holidays but........long live the teenagers board!

How do you set up Vista to switch off automatically? This could change my life! PC already has a password so they can't switch it on if I'm not around - I'm not worried about what they're looking at but DD1 would spend a ten hour stretch on MSN and Facebook.

I love the Teenagers forum - I'm led to believe that "everyone else is allowed" until I come on here and find out the truth!

I posted at Christmas that I wanted to stop my two staying in bed till mid-afternoon and was firmly put in my place. I don't mind when I'm at work but their body clocks are so out of kilter at weekends that we can't do anything together unless it's planned in advance.

My older ones are back from university ages before the youngest breaks up from school, so we have the crashing about til all hours, lights on etc, encouraging younger one to stay up and then he has to get up early for school.........aaargh. Drives me mad too.

I have set rules now about being quiet late at night, which they do take on board a little bit. They live on a totally different timescale to me, DH and DC3.

But it is nice to have them home and I miss them when they are not here

they are 17, 14 and 12(going on 16).

Thanks for the idea and support, good to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.

Of course I shouldn't be on the internet at this time of night either .

Am off to bed but would welcome any more ideas.

The tenagers I have at home are 19 and 17. The rules we have are the internet goes off at midnight,they make thier own lunch and wash up and they do any other chores they are asked to. Otherwise I let them sleep as long as they like and don't mind if they lounge around in thier dressing gowns.

How old are they mumonthenet?

I turn into a real harridan in the summer hols (I work from home and usually end up stomping about with baskets full of dirty laundry while they're loafing in their dressing gowns watching America's Next Top Model or some other such trash.)

Every year I tell myself I'll do what Custy does and draw up a timetable of jobs. This year I will definitely do it, or end up strangling one or both of them.

Come Dine With Me has sparked off a cooking frenzy so I might get them to do competitive lunches and dinners with a prize for the best one at the end of the holidays!

yes, self-regulating I would be happy with and dd(17) does this anyway pretty well.

Younger ones am not sure about, its messenger and The Sims and they literally don't notice the time. Or a DVD. I do not like it one little bit. Only have XP on this computer so I don't think I can set it up to switch itself off.

I don't mind them sleeping late next day but I want to have a few routines and responsibilities in place for them too. After all, there's more cooking and cleaning to be done when they're all at home so only fair they should take on more.

think it depends on your work pattern - as someone else said - it could suit you well to leave them sleeping - at least they aren't causing trouble for 4 or 5 hours whilst you are at work

i am of the opinion - that yes teenaers - well kids in general need lots of sleep. my kids can go to bed at ten - lights off 11 and still sleep til 10 am - potter around, breakfast - chores - its still 12 anyway.

and i don't think its good for them to be up til 1 or 3 in the morning - especially gaming that gets them wound up - rather than wound down.

and the thing is - you are relying on them to self regulate - not a good thing IME with ds2 and gaming - if he could he would seriously be up til gone 3am - then be a horrible child the next day.

Thanks for your replies, helps me to focus!

Yes Custy I too have a rubbish memory so I know I've got to plan this and have a few routines set up for them - in writing!!!

I'm not jealous of them it's mostly that it kind of disrupts my routine when they're still crashing around, eating yoghurts, leaving lights on etc..til all hours! I think I'm a control freak. Must learn to let go!

Any more ideas welcome.

It is the only time in your life that you can stay up all night and then sleep until noon. It's a right of passage. As long as they pull their weight when they are awake don't not let them just because you're jealous that you can't do it too. You had your turn as a teenager, now it's their turn.

Isn't there some research that says teenagers benefit from sleeping loads, and keeping a later time schedule [vague]?

My only different rule when my two hit this stage was - if you go to bed after us DON'T BE NOISY!

Otherwise they did chores as normal and made their own lunch.

It didn't bother me if they spent their mornings (when I was at work) asleep and the late evening (when I was in bed) awake rather than the other way round.

i know i know - been there honest to god - i found that what we do is ask for all the controls for the game consoles - like unplu them and brin them to me and leave on table downstairs or something.

minehave chores anyway - but these change over time and whent hey complain so i find the best thin to do is sit them down and have a neotiation - and say I will cook tea, but i need washing up, putting away, kitchen sides doing and table wipin - so who do you think should do what - and let them come to an agreement - that way they have a buy in

but if your kids are anythin like mine - they rely on your rubish memory and take advantae - so i write it up and stick on fridge
dh has chores too

so our house goes

me - cook - general stuff
all - wash our own plates ( in theory)
dh - wash up the rest
dd - wipe table, do recycling
ds - kitchen sides, kitchen bin

and say that you want it done BEFORE they o out with mates that day - becuase my kids go out and miht come back at 9pm ( they are 16)

and its too late to be fucking about at that time.

sometimes if i have had a partic lon day i have ran dd up and asked her to make tea - and shes ded good about it - something easy like stick a pizza in or something.

It drives me nuts too, but I was speaking to a friend who said that she was really happy her teens slept until lunchtime. She would work in the mornings and then go home for the afternoons (it saved her annual leave to take off only half-days).

The rules for my teens when they are off is that they have to do some housework - eg keep the kitchen clean, do the hoovering, and shop for any food we have run out of.

As for the computer, we have our Windows Vista set to click off at 10 or 11pm for their accounts.

they're good kids and they need a break but last hols when at home they were on computer and TV til 1 or 2 am, then asleep til lunchtime. Drives me nuts when dh and I can't do that kind of timetable.

Tell me what your rules are if any,should I insist on tv and computer off at at fixed time? do you give em some housework to do while you're out at work? Should they cook the dinner too?

Ideas please.