Help advice needed DSD

[mumof2monsters]

I have two DSD 13 and 11. They live with their mum and we have had a good relationship.DSD who is 13 send her dad a text today which basically said "Can I have pocket money as mum gets me what I need but I want money for going out with my friends and for shopping. Thanks.
I have to say DH and I were furious and I will explain.
We have had a court order to pay maintenance of £440 for both girls for years. EX wife got the equity in the house as part of the divorce. She moved to bigger house with new partner, they had a daughter have since split up and her ex pays nothing for his daughter and DH ex wife is struggling but still buys expensive wallpaper, holidays etc.
Anyway we have two kids who are 7 and 5.
DH called his daughter tonight and said he was annoyed at her text as we sat them down six months ago and explained we are tight for money, bills have all gone up, my job are making lots redundant so we cannot and will not pay more. On top of the maintenance we have contributed to a laptop for DSD, A school trip costing over £100 for our share and many more things.
Ex wife comes on phone and said well that court order was set up years ago and maybe you should be paying more.
Thing is we regularly take the girls away and ontop of maintenance we have extra food etc when we have them.
I am furious at ex wife and stepdaughter. DSD seems to think money grows on trees. Constantly tells us how much things cost ie: her new bracelet.
I feel like we are paying enough. I checked CSA website tonight which states we should be paying £380 per month. Can we go to the CSA if we have a court order?
I feel like we are paying for ex wives lifestyle and it feels like we are paying for all three of her kids when only two are our responsiblity.
Really really angry about this. I have wanted for ages Gym membership to get myself fit but could not afford or justify the money and now we are being asked to pay £30 a month to a 13 year old girls who does not even say please. HELP

[mrshibbins]

I'd send her a letter so that it's in writing, including the CSA going rate - it might not hurt to say that because of your changed circumstances and the current economic downturn, that you are considering CUTTING the maintenance to the CSA rate of £380pm, NOT increasing it!!!

[mrshibbins]

that's a hell of a lot of money each month. I wish I had £440 to support SD with!!!

[mumof2monsters]

bump

[idranktheteaatwork]

If the court order is over 12 months old then as i understand it you can apply to be assessed through the CSA and pay at that level.

Morally though, should you cut the maintenence because you are cross? Your circumstances have changed, ie you now have two more children and your job is uncertain etc. So you would be justified to say to her that you cannot afford to keep paying at that level because of your changed circumstance.
I would not refer to the pocket money request as a reason.

It's none of your business whether or not the ex buys expensive wallpaper/goes on holidays etc. It's also none of your business whether or not her ex pays maintenence for their dd.

You pay x per month, if it is not feasible and you are paying over and above what is fair/manageable then by all means reduce it to the correct/fair level.
Don't get into any other issues though.
And as for the 13 yr old ot thanking you, well, teens are notoriously ungrateful and demanding. Discuss a compromise with her mother re pocket money.

[mumof2monsters]

I appreciate that it is none of our business what ex buys etc but she does make us cross when she says she is strapped for cash and then buys and does these things. She openly tells us what she is doing buying etc but I agree it is not the issue.
We are happy to pay what we are paying but she is threatening to take us to court to have it increased. We do not know what she spends the money we give her on but says that £220 per child each month is not enough.
On top of what we buy we do always treat DSDs to various things.
DSD just thinks it is her right to have £30 per month pocket money and what we pay her mum is irrelevant.
We cannot afford £30 per month to pay and if we do that then her sister will want the same.
I called the CSA today for advice and they stated that the situations have changed since we did the court order and judges do take into account what the CSA recommend
DSD is coming to our house this weekend and I hope that my anger has subsided by then.

[ElenorRigby]

nags DP

[yerblurt]

If your circumstances have changed then you are well within your rights to request a change of circumstances review.

CM is for all day-to-day living costs of the children - this includes: school uniforms, school lunches etc etc. Other expenses such as trips etc should be split equally between both parents.

Of course you are free to add anything else - if you can afford it. There is no point in bankrupting yourself!

My first port of call for advice would be NACSA (national association for child support action). They are a non-profit organisation who provide the most up-to-date advice and support on all CSA matters. They know the most up to date legislation and all the tricky lies the CSA will also try to tell you. They will also do a full assessment for you. Membership is about £45 a year, well worth it IMHO.

From what I can garner;

1. If you have a court order directing payment of child maintenance (which are usually set at higher rates) then there is nothing to stop you from writing to the Court to seek an opinion about a variation in maintenance due to a change in circumstances. Such a letter would be written to the Court where the order was made, addressed to the judge (phone up to make sure the judge still works there!), with your case number in the top right.

1. If the order is over 12 months then as I understand it (bearing in mind I have no formal legal qualifications) then the Court would normally suggest the CSA is used. Again the procedure would be to write to the Court, seeking an opinion, stating that there have been a change in circumstances since the order was made (i.e. change of salary, more children, number of overnight stays etc) and you respectfully request an opinion from the Court on how to progress. You suggest that either the CSA/C-MEC is used for child maintenance matters or you and ex-partner come to a private arrangement, using the CSA/C-MEC guidelines for figures.

I understand your feelings about the ex's lifestyle etc and the children asking for pocket money. Kids will play one parent off against the other and try to maximise what they can wangle.

IMHO I would suggest writing a letter to the ex stating the current situation regarding CM, that you feel it is time for a review especially due to the change of circumstances.

You would then suggest a figure that is in line with the CSA/C-MEC guidelines.

Stress that you feel it would be beneficial for everyone to have a private arrangement.

Request a reply by 2-3 weeks ... and see what happens!

In the meantime write to the Court seeking an opinion.

If you want to discuss off-forum feel free to PM me or email.

[fourkids]

'CM is for all day-to-day living costs of the children - this includes: school uniforms, school lunches etc etc. Other expenses such as trips etc should be split equally between both parents.'

I sort of think it's dangerous ground to suggest what CM SHOULD be spent on...I mean, actually I think that CM IS meant to cover things like school trips - because in theory the non resident parent can be forced to pay whatever the CSA judges the correct amount. As many absent parents pay ONLY that amount, I think the CSA wouldn't set a rate expecting that more would voluntarily be paid on top IYSWIM. I mean, they don't say: 'Mr/Mrs NRP you should pay such and such amount every month plus whatever the RP asks you for for trips and swimming lessons etc' do they?

I'm not being mean or wicked-stepmotherish - we, that is DH and I, DO pay for school trips, extra curricular activities, etc etc on top of considerably higher maintenance than would be required to by the CSA...but on the other hand, I would NEVER ask my exh to do so, because I don't see why he should be expected to support my/our lifestyle. He supports his DCs at the rate the CSA would order, and as far as I'm concerned that means we have everything straightforward and organised with no (or few anyway) complications and it's never any of his business what I spend my money on! I think if the NRP pays more than they have to, they do sort of have a right to notice that their DCs need new clothes but exw has a new car!

[mumof2monsters]

Hi
Thanks all for the advice. Thing is we don't want to change the amount we pay which is £60 over the amount the csa advise.
We have a court order from 2000 which we agreed a figure of £440 for both girls. We have always paid over that for our share of school trips, have bought them clothes and recently a laptop for study etc.
We sat both DSD down six months ago and told them that money was tight, my job was iffy and we pay what we can to their mum and for trips etc. We had to do this because DSD felt we were spending money on our two kids and they were missing out. Again this was not the case my son sold some of his games on ebay to buy new ones.
Anyway DSD then sends text to DH which basically asks for £30 pocket money each month to go out and spend with her mates. We cannot afford that ontop of what we already pay and my other DSD would expect the same.
What made us cross was her demanding text .
We don't want to lower the money and are happy to continue paying but when DH spoke to ex she said that the order was a long time ago and should be reviewed as £440 for two DSD no where near covers them.
I don't care what she spends her money on to be honest but she is always digging at us and recently said
"You should stop changing your car every two years and then you would have more money" We have two cars and have to for work (we both work shifts) and one of the cars is 11 years old and the other 5 years old!
What I am saying is ex basically said pay DSD the money or she may review the situation and take us back to court for more money.
Up until now we had a good relationship with ex but now I just don't want to know anymore.

[mumof2monsters]

Can I also add to above message that since court order was done in 2000 we now have another child so our circumstances have changed but we felt as we had a good relationship with ex we did not want to ruin that.
Ex said she is struggling but this is because she has split from partner and he pays nothing to their kid and she took on lots of his debt. I know that is none of my business but her situation is not our fault and I feel she needs more money because of a situationn that has nothing to do with us.

[yerblurt]

Dont' give in to blackmail to the DSD.

Call the ex's bluff, if she wants to return it to Court/CSA then she will get short shrift.

I don't believe in giving into bullies.

[fourkids]

mumof2monsters,

IMO it sounds like you are doing your bit.

While I don't think the resident parent has any right to expect 'extras' on top of maintenance - although it's fair enough if the the NRP wants to pay for them - I do think that it ought to be par for the course that you take your DSCs on hols and that of course your grocery bills are higher when they are there.

But I also do think that if you are voluntarily paying more than you have to, and you are struggling while DH's ExW seems not to be, you have every right to feel miffed at supporting her lifestyle and the child that isn't DH's.

DSD is 13. She doesn't really understand about all the finances. And certainly if we were in your situation there would be absolutely no doubt at all that the mother told her that she has no money and she'll have to ask her father! It isn't her fault. It sounds like she's been set up...well, has been led to believe and so is under the impression that her mother looks after her, so financial responsibility for her rests solely with DH? I wouldn't be cross with DSD.

But I would have a chat with DH about getting maintenance reviewed if you think the sum would be lower - and giving the balance to DSD as pocket money!

But then, I'm feeling a bit belligerent today

[yerblurt]

So what are you going to do...

[mumof2monsters]

Thanks all for the advice much appreciated. We spoke to DSD and explained (again) what we paid for her and her sister each month and how we paid for school trips, laptop etc etc. We said that if she wanted money that should come out of what we pay because we cannot pay any more than we are.
We def do our fair share. We have always taken DSDs on holidays, paid the usual amount for maintenance that month and still taken them away (so always feel like paying double) but as her family we are happy to do so.
I do sometimes feel like I resent the whole situation I work full time shifts which are opposite to DH for childcare and could never have worked part-time as with the maintenance we could not afford for me to be part-time.
However DH and I have a good relationship and for that I am grateful. The only bone of contention in our home is when DSD gets these moods on and has demands. I will not give into moods and blackmail of pay her the pocket money or I will take you back to court (words of DH's ex)
Thanks everyone I now feel strong!!