Desperate for Help Please!

[SussexGirl8]

DH has 2 children who live with their mum over 180 miles away (DH moved years ago because of work). We have the children one weekend a month, plus a week at Easter, a week in the Summer and a week at Christmas.

DSD (11) used to be okay(ish), but over the last few months, she has started crying uncontrollably and saying she doesn't want to come with us anymore, wants to stay with her mum and that she hates her dad. Her mum wont have it and says that she HAS to go, despite DSD begging her not to make her go. We are obviously deeply upset by this as DH has never even so much as said a cross word to her or told her off (their mother has always been the one who disciplines them). The other DSC is fine. DSD is (and always has been) a real mummys girl and doesn't have many friends, preferring to spend time with her mum or nan at home. DSD and I always seemed to get on OK (she would always talk to me more than DH), but lately she is treating me the same as her dad. She is also being the same with her gran and grandad (DH's parents).

DH has tried talking to her, but she wont talk to him just constantly crying and saying that she wants her mummy. He has tried speaking to her mum on many occasions and DSD has even phoned her mum crying, begging to come home, but her mum wont allow it saying that no matter how bad or upset she gets, DH is NOT to take her back home, not under any circumstances. We adhere to what her mother says, but she doesn't "get over it" and just spends the whole weekend sobbing and ignoring everyone.

Now I have my own theories about why she is the way she is and I think that parental alienation syndrome plays quite a big part in it as DH's Ex has on many occasions bad mouthed DH to the kids and has made him out to be a horrible person if he has to change a weekend or says he doesn't know if he can afford to pay for trainers, school trips etc. one month (on top of CSA and other things he pays for for them etc.). She will even goes as far as telling the kids "daddy doesn't love you enough to buy you new trainers this month" whilst DH is on the phone! DH is not horrible, he is the kindest person Ive ever met and loves his kids unconditionally. SHE finished with DH 9 years ago (we have been together 7 years) and I think she hates the fact that DH "moved on" so quickly, whilst she is still single.

DH has tried to talk to his ex and tell her that he is worried about DSD being so upset and that it breaks his heart to see her cry and so sad and upset, but his ex just gets nasty and says "welcome to parenthood, deal with it"! DSD is, apparently (according to the rest of her family), not like this at home and is only like it when she comes to us. DH has suggested DSD saw a child psychologist or another specialist to get to the bottom of why she is like this, but his ex wont even discuss it or hear of it.

Can anyone offer any advice as to what we should do? All we want is for DSD to be happy and we hate seeing her so distraught. Should we insist that DSD doesn't come with us until she says she wants to come, rather than her being forced to do something she doesn't want to do? DH doesn't want DSD to think we dont want to have her, but in the same breath cant help thinking that if this continues she is just going to end up hating and resenting him even more because she will associate getting upset and miserable with being with us. All we want is what is best for DSD. Please help! Thanks

[Surfermum]

How upsetting for you, and how frustrating that you can't get to the bottom of what is going on for her.

If her mum has been saying things like that she has put your dsd in an impossible position. There is the picture her mum is painting of her Dad and then there is the one she is experiencing which is completely different. She must be all over the place with her emotions. And one of the people she should be able to trust most in the world to make things OK for her is putting her in that position.

Sorry I have no real advice for you, hopefully someone will come along who has. But I have a bucket full of sympathy.

[Haribosmummy]

Gosh, how difficult (and very sad) for everyone!!

Two things make me think it's NOT PAS:

1. The other DC isn't suffering from it
2. THe mother is adament that the child goes to the father. Even though she is being less than helpful in resolving the issue (or appears to be).

It strikes me as important that her mother says 'welcome to parenthood, get used to it' - it makes me feel that this DC does act like this at home (perhaps not a separation thing, but over other things she's not getting her own way on??)...

Could it be that the DC's mother is trying to forge something of a social life for herself when her DC are with you and it's something that this DC doesn't like? Or maybe the ex has a NM the child does not like to feel excluded - it seems there is some sort of disparity over the child being adament she wants to be at home and the mother being adament the child must go....

Whatever it is, you do need to resolve it. IMHO, you don't need her mothers permission to take her to see a counsellor.. You need to get to her root concerns here (which IMO appear to be more about being at home than any problem per se with dad...)

Def. don't insist on her not coming.. She may take that as rejection (the mind of an 11 year old can be a complicated one and I think it's good for the child to know that you are there unconditionally) especially if she is being told things like daddy doesn't love her enough.

Are the Grandparents any help? Can you talk to THEM (you mention a nan?)... Could she come to stay with you to help the DC settle?

I have to say, though, it really does sound to me like whatever issue is going on is more about mum's house... I'd hazard a guess that, after 9 years of being single, she's gotten over it and moved on and the DC isn't liking that...

but all of that is just my supposition, obviously!!

[mummynumber2]

I'm not sure I have any useful advice for you but couldn't ignore this as it really sounds so sad and distressing for all of you.

All I can say is that in my experience this is a very difficult age for all sorts of reasons and both my DSDs in slightly different ways, went through quite dramatic personality changes (DSD1 is coming out of it just as DSD2 is starting!)

I'm with Surfermum really. I have a lot if sympathy for you and hope that you manage to resolve this.

I'd be really interested if someone could explain to me what PAS is.

[monkeylaine]

Hi there, I've got two examples of a similar thing.
My DD didn't want to stay with her dad (he's single, so no other people involved). My DS is always ok about staying with him. My DD would cry her heart out that she wanted to be with me. So ex and I decided to allow her to stay with me on those occasions. I never minded, as the kids come first, no matter what I might have planned. After a short time of allowing my DD to 'not go to her dad' when she didn't want to, I then gave my DD a choice about when she did want to stay with her dad and she chose happily. She also added that she wanted some of that time with just her dad, so not with her brother there too. So now we do the odd visit like that, and DS has the same. But she's now back to our original agreement, and happy. I tell her she's to be staying with her dad and check that she's ok with it, and she now just says yes. I guess it's partly because she has some control over the visits.

But with my DSS, he didn't want to go to his mum's (he chose to live with his dad and I last Oct). But, as his brother still lives with his mum, CAFCASS have stated quite strongly that they are to spend holidays together. So, we explained this to him, and he's having to go for a week, despite not wanting to, and then he and his brother are staying with us for a week. His mum wont allow his brother to just stay with us for the two weeks - she's insisting DSS goes to her for one of them. I feel uneasy about us making him go, but he understands. If we don't encourage the siblings to have contact, CAFCASS will recommend to the courts (case in Aug 09) that both boys live together, and as we haven't the room (trying to sell and buy, but who knows!) my DSS could end up being placed back with his mum, which means moving town, school, etc., against his wishes. CAFCASS were close to abusive when we told them my DSS didn't want to go to his mum's, and so we'd just have his brother for the week! They seriously thought we were in the wrong, as it impacted his brother. As soon as my DSS has the choice and there's no such impact, he said he will for sure not stay at his mum's. I'm hoping he actually manages to sort out his relationship with his mum to be honest, because it wasn't so bad before he left. CAFCASS/Social Services are not as bothered about the child seeing one or other non-resident parent, if the child is adamant that they don't want to, especially from 12 yrs. At 11 it's a little more difficult. But my DSS is 12. The child's wellbeing (which includes self-esteem and emotional welfare) is more important than the parent's desires to have time with or away from the child. So if it's not in the child's best interests at present to have the contact, then it's best not to force it. You would be asked to actively encourage it though. Her mum should really send her when she's emotionally more ready not for her own convenience. It's a very selfish approach, and is not in the child's best interests. I believe you need to stop visits planned by the parents for your DSD, and then both sides work together to find the root cause of the problem and gradually step the visits back up to what they were, giving your DSD some control over the situation. At 12 your DSD will be able to state that she doesn't want to go and then can not be forced.

This might not be of any help. But, I'd say, don't force, stop the next visit then give your DSD some choices, which include visits on A, B or C date possibly just the weekends for now, and work together to ease things back to the prior arrangements. But, none of this should impact your other DSC. This both encourages contact and is in your DSD's best interests. And it's always better to fix a problem than run away from it, and potentially make it much worse over time, as your DSD seems to want to. As adults we know that's not in a child's best interests. As their representatives, sometimes we have to make tough decisions for them, to help them in the long term.

[SussexGirl8]

Thank you all for your kind messages and advice.

Mummynumber2, PAS stands for Parental Alienation Syndrome. When one parent is trying to alienate a child from the other parent.

There are issues with the other DSC aswell, which make us think it is PAS related, its just that he is older and has always been close to his dad. DSD was very young when DH and their mother split up and she has always made comments to DH such as "you may have DSSs unconditional love, but your NEVER going to take DSD off me". She always moans about DSS and how "naughty and badly behaved" he is (hes truly a joy to have and is no trouble at all with us), but she wont hear a single word said about DSD! She is adamant that DSD comes to us each month because she wants to go out drinking / with her friends that weekend. She tells us /them that, despite the fact that her parents have them most weekends anyway! I think that if it is PAS it is not that she doesn't want DH to have the kids (she wants the break from them, as she keeps telling us), its more the fact that she doesn't seem to want DSD to have a good relationship with her father or to bond with him like DSS has (despite her best efforts to effect their relationship too)! She regularly tells DSS that DH doesn't love him enough (if he cant afford to buy something she says he should buy him) or tells them that DH loves me more than them now etc. Things that really hurt and are totally unacceptable in my eyes! I dont want to badmouth her because she is their mother, but I could write a book on all the things she has done /said to us and DSC in the past, but through it all, not once, have DH or I ever bad mouthed her to the kids and we never would, whatever she did! That is totally unacceptable and is, what I believe the root of why DSS treats DH like this.

Haribosmummy, their nan is their mothers mother and DSD is almost as close to her as she is to her mum. The children stay there most weekends and I think (at her age) their nan is getting too old and tired to have them too much now. She is very nice and kind, but is also ruled by what her daughter says. Also, there is the difficult situation that we live so far away from them, so it just wouldn't be practical for her to come and stay as it would mean around a 3 hour journey each way for her and she doesn't drive.

Monkeylaine, thanks so much for your advice. Its great to hear someone say that they think DSD shouldn't be forced to come. I think you are right, if DSS had more control of the situation and the decision then she would probably come around eventually. I think she should be given the choice, but her mum doesnt want to give her the option of not going because then that would mean she couldn't go out!

I do think DSD needs to see a councellor, but I think her mum will go mad if we just took her to see one without telling her and I dont know what rights DH has as they were never married and so doesn't have parental responsibility! Can he still make decisions like that without it?

Thanks once again for all your help, any other advice would be greatly appreciated. x

[monkeylaine]

What your DSD's mum is doing seems to be mentally (or emotionally) abusive towards your DSD, as it's clearly causing her problems; something CAFCASS and Social Services take very seriously. I've known children to be moved to the other parent's custody for similar reasons - as the child's self-esteem and confidence are being reduced, contact is being hindered through manipulation, and the child is deemed not to be thriving.

Also, I think if your DSD's mother is doing these things, if she's not careful it will backfire on her in the future. Your DSD might one day start to see that she was prevented from having a full and proper relationship with a wonderful father, because of her mother's attitude. She might feel 'loss' and it will be her down to her mother. Sometimes that sort of realisation comes well after teens.

In the meantime, I think no matter how hard it is for all involved, your DSD actually needs you and her dad. What her mother says is incorrect and destructive and very irrelevant. Your DSD is too young to understand this level complexity, so you just have to work with what you have for now - and just be there for her, taking an interest in her and her activities, expecting little, or what you get now, in return. I maintain I don't agree your DSD should be forced to visit at all scheduled times, especially for her mum's convenience, and maybe you could use phone calls or internet communication instead. But I do believe it's important for your DSD to have the contact, and to ease her back into having visits - say one weekend every two months (her choice from a few options!).

About PR, I don't beleive you can take your DSD to a counsellor without PR. And your DSD's mum probably doesn't want her to go to one, as it could reveal what her mum's saying and doing to her daughter, i.e. close to, if not, emotional abuse.

[SussexGirl8]

Thanks again Monkeylaine. DH has asked DSD on many occasions if she wants to come each month and she always says NO. However, her mum wont accept that and always forces / bribes / shouts at her to come whether DSD likes it or not! That in my eyes is some form of abuse, forcing a child to do something that for whatever reason is seriously distressing her! Dont get me wrong, we do want to see her each month, but we hate seeing her so angry / upset!

We have the DSC on a set weekend each month and these dates are agreed for the whole year at the beginning of each year. We try not to change them as their mother gets annoyed if we do (although its okay for her to change them at short notice) so unless it is something we really cant get out of, we stick to the weekends.

DSD wont speak to DH on the phone or via email / MSN. He phones them once a week and speaks to DSS but DSD refuses to speak to him. If she picks up the phone when he rings then as soon as he says hello, she puts the phone down on him! Their mum wont encourage her to speak to him and she is well aware of the situation because DH she occasionally emails and says "DSD is stroppy / upset because she has to go to yours this month" yet she refuses to let her not come.

I just dont know what else to do, this is heartbreaking and so sad. I feel so sorry for DH and DSD, its a very mixed up situation for both of them!

[ElenorRigby]

Sorry if I missed this sussexgirl but how old is your DSS is he older than your DSD?

btw bucket loads of sympathy for your situation but just wanted to know a little more info before replying in full

[SussexGirl8]

Hi ElenorRigby, DSS is older than DSD, he is 13.

[ElenorRigby]

thanks sussexgirl

I've hesitated to post because sadly I have little positive to say in circumstances like these

PAS is like a cancer that destroys parental relationships. When a parent sets out to poison a child against the other parent, it is terrible, it is abuse ime but it is very very difficult if not impossible to reverse.

A dad and wife I know have been a similar situation to you. Dads kids are about 11 and 14.
Mum tried to alienate both kids from dad, bad mouthing dad and step mum.
Older child did not/has not swallowed mums poison. Mum recruited younger child to bitch about and push out older child.
Younger child was also made into a team against dad, stepmum and sibling.
Mum "won" in making her youngest child "mini-person"of her
"stepmum" became nervous of spending time alone with the youngest stepkid, she feared the child could make abuse allegations.
Mum then discouraged/alienated from spending time with dad and his wife, in short she seemed to have won.

Sorry as I have said PAS is the worst.
If you were her I would give you a big hug. So I am sure would my friends.
I cannot still get my head round parents hurting their children in any way.
Look after yourself and take care

[monkeylaine]

SussexGirl8, sorry to be posting again! I think you all need some form of mediation and your DSD needs some form of counselling. Her mother needs a good telling off by the authorities (social services / cafcass, etc) for this emotional abuse. It's too destructive to leave it. But it's not something you can initiate or even be part of, your husband needs to seek advice. Put it this way, if your DSD was being poisoned and slowly (physically) suffering, you'd jump on it and act. Well, it seems to me that she's being poisoned and slowly (mentally/emotionally) suffering. And this sort of suffering also leads to physical suffering (stress and anxiety induced). I hope you can find a way. But, I would at least start by seeking advice from social services. I'm not sure what they'll do, as they seem to vary from one area to the next.

[ElenorRigby]

Sussexgirl Ive read something interesting on another forum about PAS.
PAS has in the past been not taken seriously or downplayed in the family courts.
I have just seen a case where a girl was being alienated from her dad and the judge accepted that the child was being alienated!
Hopefully more judges in future will accept PAS is real and take that into account in future cases

[Shalotta]

SussexGirl8, I don't know how your situation has evolved since you posted, but just wanted to add that I have investigated the PAS myself, as I suspected the mother of my DSS having had a go at it and probably us seing more of that in the future.

It is difficult from outside to say what is really bugging your DSS but if this does not get any better, I think you should definitely go down the route of seeing a professional. As has been said here already, PAS is a very serious affair and it might becomre irreversible, if nothing is being undertaken to stop it. However, the good news is - and I know it first hand from a child psychologist - seeing a therapist WILL help the child detach from his mothers feelings and (unconscious) wishes and make-up his own mind! And - you do not need the mother's agreement for that. I'd say - in contrary - if she really has the best interest of her child at heart, she will agree. And if she doesn't, well then at least you have the proof of what is really going on.

A child psychologist will be able to find out the real motives behind your DSS upset. And - I don't know the UK law - in other European countries you can go to the family court if you have proof that one of the parents is playing the PAS!