DPs 6 y/o dd and her mother - don't know how to handle their impacts

[thecandymancan]

I'm sure lots of you have been here before and can help me out!
Been with DP a year. He split up with his exw 6mths prior. He has 2DC and I have 1. About 6 mths ago we started doing play dates with kids. Everything was going so well until ex w found out we were a couple. We'd approached it previously as friends just to ease children into it and to give them time. She decided to tell them we were together and made a big angry scene about it screaming at dp in front of the kids.

Since then there have been a few incidents with his eldest (DD age 6). She and I get on well and she often asks to come and see me and my ds and when she's at my house she likes doing things with me. My point here is I know she likes me. She is quite spiteful as a child (have witnessed this with her behaviour to other children at bbqs etc) and she can be quite spiteful to me. DP doesn't pull her up on it as he says he doesn't want to drive a wedge between me and her. I think there are some he can let go but also that she should treat me with respect as she should any other adult. As he was a stepchild he seems to have the monopoly on these things though!!

Anyway - we did always anticipate issues with her but now it's getting worse, in my opinion because His ex w is (possibly deliberately) making things tricky both with the dd but also for him. He left her so she was understandably hurt but she will often cry in front of the kids, tell them she's angry daddy is with me, send him texts eg "just so you know the kids are really sad tonight about the split", "can't believe you've chosen to go to your brothers 40th instead of dds ballet performance, you don't get these moments back". Etc etc. the upshot of this is that dp constantly feels guilty and worried about his kids and now his dd seems to have changed her opinion of me. She says that she wants daddy to be with mummy, not me and that mummy isn't happy because of me. She also doesn't want to see me and says things which blatantly come from her mum " it's important for the three of us to spend time together". (Meaning her, him and her sibling. His ex will often tell him he spends too much time with me and the kids and he should spend time the three of them). (Incidentally I see them once a month or every couple of weeks max).

So here's the question.... Do we carry on seeing each other with the kids? Or do I just bow out and leave them to it and me and dp only see each other alone or with my ds (where so far it's been plain sailing). I want to be sympathetic to a 6 year olds needs but also think that she will at some point need to be ok with me as hopefully her dad and me have a long future ahead. Also part of me is so angry wit he ex for her manipulating ways at making dp feel guilty and making her own daughter feel so torn.

Sorry for the long post... Just a bit confused!

[TheMumsRush]

It's still early days for her, but boundaries need to be put in place, it's a hard like trying to be a friend and an authoritative figure. I'm not much help but sure someone will be along soon :)

[partyskirt]

I think I would back off for a bit, and don't see his kids. Things might get calmer, his ex might chill out and/or meet someone else, or they all will just realise you're in it for the long term and stop opposing you being together. Don't worry -- definitely don't move in with him as the stepchildren will be negative for your DS.

[thecandymancan]

So tonight he collects his kids and dd6 starts asking about me and then begging to come to mine tomorrow for a sleepover...
Will be interesting to see if she's still as excited tomorrow after having told her mum she is coming...

We aren't planning on moving in soon but would like to next year sometime....

Just praying for his ex to meet someone...

[partyskirt]

Yes, that could just fix things OP. Well it sounds like they're all lucky to have you.

Btw, your username is terrifying

[thecandymancan]

Lol I know! Itried a few and they were all taken so I thought of the most random thing I could!!

[ClashCityRocker]

It's still very early days, and even in the best of situations, she will likely be trying to process her feelings about the split, her dad, you etc...and it doesn't sound like this is the best of situations, what with his ex emotionally unloading on the kids.

IMO the best thing you can do is be firm but consistent - it is perfectly natural for her at that age to want mummy and daddy back together, and not a reflection on you in the slightest. She might well start to accept this more over time - and her mother might (hopefully) start to move on.

[shey03]

Honestly I absolutely detest mother's like these. Those who profess to love their children more than anything in the world, but who also wish them to unlove the other parent and be unhappy when they are with them.

Hugs Candyman, many parts of your post echo with me. It's very difficult when you know children are being coached to hate you and you see their behaviour deteriorate over time or change from one day to the next, depending on what their mother knows/says or how she feels...

What I wish I knew 2 years ago is this; simply that your relationship does not actually depend on building a bond with his dc, so do not overanalyze or take too personally the setbacks. What your dp has to do is support you both as a team. Obviously he needs time alone with his dc as well as time for you all. But it needs to be clear that you are a couple (however discipline, etc. is HIS job, you take a backseat here) and he does need to enforce consequences for behaviours that are wrong or that you do not want to encourage.

When his dd says the sort of thing that you have quoted, it's good that she voices this rather than bottles it up, as it's opening up communication and gives you both a chance to talk to her. To tell her honestly about your relationship and challenge her beliefs about her mother's unhappiness and her parents previous marriage. Obviously in an age appropriate way, but this is a positive going forward that communication is there as you will be repeating those same things over the years alot.

I have found after two years, that I can never relax, never after a nice weekend, think, that's it, they like me now, how wonderful. Because the next time I see them, it's starting all over again, with sullen faces, hostile body language, etc... It can be exhausting, but my number one priority is my dp and I do it for him because I love him.

Last thing. If your dp does not want to be micro-managed for the next 10 years or end up in an early grave from stress, he will need to tell his ex to back off and limit her contact. So this will be strictly issues of necessity, contact dates/times, etc. YOU and YOUR DS are off limits! Guilt trips no longer required. Anything toxic/hostil/guilt related will be deleted/not responded to.

[Caorunn]

Did your DP (and you to an extent) meet with his ex and explain that you were a couple? Was she aware of what your plans were with the children? Was the occasion when she made a scene the first time that she was aware you were his partner and/or involved in her children's lives.

Why did you anticipate problems? How often were you meeting with the children? What were you doing when with them? Have you stayed over or have they stayed over with you? Was his ex consulted on that? What were the circumstances of the break-up? Did they (i.e. your partner and his ex) know you before you and he got together?

Because rightly or wrongly the answers to these questions (and I am sure a pile of others) influence the reaction of your partner's ex. That's not rocket science I am afraid. Your partner's need/wish to have you in his children's lives does not trump his ex's wish for the opposite. They need to work out a way forward. It hasn't been a long time since they split; yes of course life moves on but actually showing her some compassion and understanding will go along way to help you all in the long term. That applies even if you think she is being totally unreasonable.

I am not suggesting that she has a right of veto on what the children do and with whom; equally neither should your partner able to dictate what happens with their children.

shey03 it is very much not the place of the new partner to challenge a six year old child's beliefs on why their mother is unhappy or indeed to talk about why that child's parents are no longer together. Utterly utterly inappropriate. As you point out the success of the new relationship is not dependant on the bond with the children from his old. The OP needs to be understanding and respect some boundaries. Also, not wanting your children to spend time with a new partner of your ex does not mean that you want the children to 'unlove' that ex or be unhappy when with them. The two things are distinct.

I wouldn't bank on his ex changing her position if she finds a new partner either. I made no difference to my loathing of my former husband's partner; although admittedly she was the ow so my feelings may be stronger than your partner's ex.

[shey03]

I'm sorry previous poster, but the OP's partner is every bit a parent as the mother is. He does not have to 'explain' that he is a big boy and has moved on........ A polite text or short conversation would be suffice. His time is his time, it has very, very little to do with his ex and he does not have to get her permission to have a life. It sounds like the OP and her partner are thoughtful and responsible, even the tone of her post and summary is thoughtful with the children at the forefront of her mind.

For whatever reason you have chosen to misinterpret the tone of my comments re communication. Age appropriation is everything, but yes you must commuicate. Where parental alienation exists, one does need to connect and communicate and influence positively where there exists negativity. One does need to 'correct' misinformations. Why should a family or a child be raised on lies?!? Most of that communication over the years will be down to the father obviously, rather than the OP. It's not healthy for children to be alienated or lied to, or cried in front of, or divided, it's cruel. And it's up to someone to rectify that and if it's the dad, so be it, why not? Who could stand by and see their child suffering and not say anything. Doesn't seem like the OP or her partner are ranting on about the mother in front of the child....

And maybe in your case the things are distinct, but we all have our own experiences. I for one, was cheated on by my exh. Sure it was crap at the time, but I'm over it, we are friendly now, we almost never argue. I want my children to have a life with their father and because I am emotionally detached from him and secure in my relationship with my dc, I couldn't care less whether his girlfriend spends time with the kids or not. It's not my business. I certainly don't coach my kids to hate her, or let it take over my life like some do. Previous poster as the OP said, everything was going so well... until the dad moved on. WW3. Distinct maybe, selfish, jealous and controlling, certainly.

[Caorunn]

Oh my such selective reading. Of course the father is as much of a parent as the mother. The new partner, not so much. He certainly doesn't need his ex's permission - however if he wants to try and protect the relationship with the mother of his children, for the benefit of those children, then actually he needs to consider the impact of his actions. Whether he thinks they are unreasonable or not. As indeed does the mother.

We are not talking about parental alienation however are we? There is no suggestion that the mother of the children has an issue with her ex. only with her ex's new partner. Who is not a parent. And you are of course correct who would want to stand-by and see their child suffering? So the father of those children can adjust his behaviour to prevent that. Or he can assume that the mother will. So we have a mexican stand-off. Each adult doing what they want. How does that benefit the children?

There was no misinterpretation you, and I quote, suggested that the OP

... tell her honestly about your relationship and challenge her beliefs about her mother's unhappiness and her parents previous marriage.

[emphasis mine]

Wrong and absolutely not the place of the new partner.

I am pleased that you have managed to move on from the breakdown of your relationship and your children's family due to your husband's infidelity.

[Caorunn]

But meant to ask is your ex's current girlfriend the same woman with whom he was unfaithful? And how recently was this?

[Redshoes7]

I've been in a similar situation and agree with what shey03 has said.

I can definitely be a roller coaster of emotions, but it's worth it for the love I share with my DP.

We asked my DSC some age appropriate questions to try and get them to analyse the situation for themselves, within their own abilities.
I think one of the hardest parts is having a breakthrough one weekend and the negative influence push it all out by the time we next see them.

I think the biggest thing is consistency. If it is you both believe some behaviour is unacceptable it will create more tension if you're not bringing it up from the start. Kids will immediately look for someone to blame when the rules are more strict.
I would also agree with your DSD when she said the three of them need to spend time together. Explain that she has time with just her dad and sibling and you're only there some of the time.
After negative comments from DP's ex, I'm constantly explaining to my 8 yr old DSS that the time DP gets to spend with them is not the same as what their mum gets.

It's not an easy ride, but you have to decide whether your DP is worth it. From the sounds of it, you're doing a great job with how you've approached everything so far.

[thecandymancan]

Thanks everyone for the replies.
I don't see myself as a parent to them at all. I see them as an adult who has a relationship with their dad and who likes them , it's similar to how I feel about close friends kids. We don't live together and don't see eachother with he kids more than once or twice a month. His ex has screamed at him about not wanting the children to have another mum (infront of them..) so he (and I because 6yo brought it up and I didn't want to brush her off) have had the chat with them To explain that I'm ds's mummy and they have a brilliant mummy all of their own and I don't want to be their mummy. I'm daddy's girlfriend and I'd like it if we could all be friends. It really is learning as I go but I tend to think about what I would want someone to say to my ds if the situation was reversed. So whenever they mention something about mum we always listen and say positive things "isn't it nice of mummy to take you on holiday" "it sounds like you had a great time making cakes with mummy" etc.

As for the questions asked. I knew of DP before they split (work) but never knew his ex. I've said I'm very happy to meet her if she wants. She veers from wanting to to not wanting to.

Before she knew we were a couple we were just doing odd afternoons together and no sleepovers or anything like that. I think DP should have been more proactive about telling her we were together but (sadly) he wanted his kids to get to know me first as he anticipated their mum would make things hard for them and he wanted them to get the chance to build their own opinions.
I agree very much they need time just with their dad and encourage this. I love time just me and ds.

They are coming tonight (it was just going to be meet in the pub for tea but his kid were desperate to come for a sleepover,) They will be spending the day with mum today so no doubt a few comments will be made. Poor kids.

DP does ignore the texts he gets which are manipulative. He can't see it though and says he can't believe someone would do that on purpose and that after years and years of it in his marriage he learnt to rise above it. I haven't got there just yet though!!!! I wish he'd tell her to stop but he doesn't want to rock the boat. (He's such a people pleaser which is lovely in some ways but also frustrating cause I don't feel like he's on my side - I feel like he just hovers in the middle of everyone feeling guilty about everything. (Ex tells him she sometimes wishes she was dead, is lonely and depressed, had lost all her confidence etc etc). All terribly sad but I wish she would tell someone else! I understand it's hard if he was the person she moaned talked to for several years but I wish she wouldn't still throw it into conversation. Ugh.

As for talking to the kids, I leave all the pro active stuff to DP. When the kids start something i do talk to them about it eg if his dd says "Mummy will be lonely this weekend cause she's missing me" I will say, "mummy's always miss their children but your mummy is at her friends house this weekend so she will be having a lovely time and will e happy you are too and then she'll be so excited to see you later." I would never enter into discussions about her parents marriage unless I couldn't escape it (I don't want her to think I don't want to talk to her or that I don't care for her feelings) but I feel I have a good grasp of what's appropriate and what isn't!!

I just wish DP would stand up to ex a bit more but when he tries it's like ww3!! And that's when the "I wish I was dead" stuff comes out. Hard to hear but also (and I hate this) i do think she uses it to manipulate....

So let's see how tonight goes. Thanks everyone-I have felt very alone with all this so it's good to have a "safe place" to talk

[riverboat1]

I think you sound very reasonable and thoughtful OP, I hope you find a way forward.

I think to some extent it's normal that kids wish for their parents to still be together - my DSS sporadically says this even though his life is very stable and I know it's not being "planted" by his mum or anyone else (except maybe kids at school. I think this should be acknowledged as something normal to feel, but gently reinforced by the parent (not the SP/partner) that it's not and won't be reality.

I don't have any experience with a delicate/semi-hostile situation like yours, but I think the best thing would be calm consistency, don't get sucked into discussions with the kids about what their mum said about you or about the split, I think that should be left to your DP. Maybe don't see them any MORE than you currently do, for now, but I think it could be a mistake in the long-term to actively retreat from seeing them altogether.

[riverboat1]

X-post with OP.

Hope tonight goes well. I'd try to be Zen about any comments from the DD. I get that you don't want to seem like you're ignoring her feelings or brushing her off, but since it seems to more be during the transition period of switching from mum's care to dad's (this time has historically been difficult for my DSS BTW and there is no animosity coming from mum) maybe it would be best not to engage and let it die out so she can get on with shaking down and enjoying her time with you?

[fedupbutfine]

I think you need to understand how devastating it can be to be the person who was left and the lasting impact it can have. I see so many posts where there is an expectation that a parent becomes some kind of robot who doesn't express their emotions and I'm sorry to say but I personally found that incredibly difficult in the early days and my children saw me cry on a regular basis and were, I'm sure, able to understand that it was because daddy had gone. There was certainly no intention on my part to rubbish the OW (who was the OW, not a new partner who came along at a later date - although there have been plenty of those too in the interim!) but I simply wasn't able, at that time, to keep it all from spilling out. This may (or may not) have contributed to the eventual demise of that particular relationship but I never set out to interfere or to make the children say things or be negative in anyway towards her. Children, even young children, are able to make their own decisions about whether they want mum and dad to live together and even mine, who have had several years to get used to the idea and who know that there is no chance we will ever live together again, sometimes express a wish that things were different. I am not coaching them to say that if they express it in front of the latest girlfriend, nor do I wish to upset her or make a point or anything else. They are children, they sometimes lack awareness as to what may or may not be an appropriate thing to say in a given situation. And they are entitled to their opinion on their parents.

It is probable that when mum expresses 'the children are sad tonight about the break up', that's exactly what she's just had to deal with. It may not be right to text it but it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. In the first few years of my break up I would also probably have had something to say about a father making a decision to not attend his child's ballet recital and more than likely told my ex on a few occassions what I thought of him. Ultimately, you come to realise that your ex's relationship with his children is his responsibility and the need to tell him where he's going wrong all the time does subside! I would say simply ignore such texts - they may get worse for a while but if she's looking for attention or to get a rise that doesn't happen, she will eventually stop.

Good co-parenting is built on a foundation of mutual respect and an ability to communicate, despite what may have happened and despite how you might feel about the other person personally. Don't make assumptions about what mum may or may not be saying. Don't assume that everything negative that comes from the children's mouths has come directly from mum. If you can be a voice of reason between mum and dad, you may well help the situation improve rather than deteriorate over time.

[shey03]

There's certainly alot going on, I am in exactly the same situation with my dp and his exw. When I see how happy my dc are with their father, my dp and myself, I just think aah what if... I very much limit my time with dp's dc now, to fast moving, interactive activities which will be a laugh. Things like sitting over dinner, usually result in silence/sulks and them giving their dad a hard time. So I'm learning what makes them tick and which situations to avoid.

Sure in the early days, I cried, I raged, I did it once in front of my dc and swore never to do it again. It hurt them, scared them and made them feel bad about their father. I hated myself for it, thereafter I sent them off with a smile each time and when they asked what I was up to, I'd make stuff up, so that they wouldn't feel sorry for me. It's hard and unfair, but I put them first and have reaped the rewards, we all have.

Nowadays life is full and great, the only blip is the hostile/bitter/alienation from dp's ex. She just cannot move on even though she has a relationship and it is changing her dc for the worst. I feel so sorry for them, because we should all be able to get on... and we did in the beginning, they accepted me as they would a new friend... Children are very easy to influence, very easy to spin, negatively and positively. And left their own devices most will choose the path of least resistance and greatest influence. My dd once said, that she wished we were still together, instead of bawling and agreeing, I explained that actually it wasn't all daddy's fault, we were not happy in the marriage and that we were all happier and calmer now. She accepted this and was very young at the time. So it can be done, if you want happy kids. You've gotta both meet in the middle and put your OWN PERSONAL shit away.

Yes Caorrun, OW from the time of the marriage to the six years since, on and off, cos that's how they roll.

Anyway, we've gone off thread. The op is looking for ways to move forward without making the situation worse, just alot of us here are, sadly it's very common.

[lornemalvo]

I would stop describing a 6 year old as spiteful. Remember she is a little girl in a very upsetting situation. She'll need time. It sounds a very difficult situation for you and the children. None of you have caused the problem. I do think your dp who chose to leave his young family should make a point of attending all his dc's events to help them feel more secure. They are insecure because he has left them.