Alienation and short term positives for step children

[grumpygoat79]

I couldn't quite explain what I meant in the title but basically, what do we know about when a newly alienated child has a short term positive experience of abandoning the alienated parent?

My DSD has done her fourth "I'm never seeing you again" this weekend. As ever, it could be the last.

It started when she was 11 and we've had her gone for between six and two months each time. So she isn't truly alienated as she does seem to come back. She's 15 now and so she can articulate things a bit better than on previous occasions. She said to me on text something along the lines of "Being around my Dad always causes negativity in my life. I am the thing that holds him and my mum together in their rows so if I remove one factor, my dad, we can have some peace without rowing and arguing"

So she's kind of "got it" but the weird thing is that her mum and dad don't actually speak and there haven't been any rows for aggggges.

Anyway, I can see what will happen... she will now have a period of calm and tranquility which she will put down to having removed her dad from her life. But knowing what I know from previous experience and masses of research, I know the feeling is false and temporary and purely down to the fact that she will have her Mother's unspoken approval and respect for "breaking up" with her dad. As soon as Mum has her next narcissistic rage outburst, it'll all be unsettled again.

When this happened before it was hard for DH to see DSD thrive away from him. Almost like "oh, maybe I AM the problem" so I'd like to be able to support him and explain this is just another symptom of alienation.

Has anyone got experience of this?

[WakeyCakey45]

Oh yes. It's horrid; DH got told by DSS school that DSS had become a "different child" (in a positive sense) since contact had stopped

Karen Woodall has dedicated a blog to the phenomenon, and I'm sure it will be mentioned in her book about alienation which will be released soon. Maybe have a look there?

The other thing to remind your DH is that it isn't him that's the problem but the situation. Perhaps no one is to blame. Could he look at it slightly differently? The combination of parent and child personalities has resulted in this dynamic - no one is at fault, everyone is doing the best they can, but result is difficult for everyone.

[grumpygoat79]

Thanks Wakey. In looking forward to Karen's book.

That's what I'm worried about. It's dsds GCSEs this year and whilst I pray she does well, I know that if/when she does that it will be attributed to her being with mum and not being with dad whereas although that may be the case - it is more the fact that dsd not having contact with dad will simply make her life easier to manage as mum will be cool with it and dsd won't be feeling disloyalty at every turn

[WakeyCakey45]

I know that if/when she does that it will be attributed to her being with mum and not being with dad

But that's ok, isn't it? If your DHs role as a parent, right now, is to remain at arms length (while keeping himself informed of her life in other ways) and waiting in the wings til she needs him, then isn't that what he needs to do?

Who cares what other people attribute her success to? He (and you) will know that he's made positive parenting choices that have contributed to his DDs success. No one else's opinion matters, does it?

[grumpygoat79]

I mean he will attribute it to that himself. Obviously if she does well that's a good thing regardless but I think I'll have to really support him through feelings that mum will have been "right" about how dsd is better off with her.

[grumpygoat79]

That's useful though so I can explain that his standing back has allowed her to thrive not because she doesn't need him but because that's just the role he's playing right now..

[WakeyCakey45]

I think I'll have to really support him through feelings that mum will have been "right" about how dsd is better off with her.

It is probably worth discussing with him the fact that he doesn't place any value on other opinions that his DDs mum holds, so why does he care about what she thinks of him as a parent?
She's clearly demonstrated some questionable parenting choices, so is hardly the best judge of whether a parent is a good influence in a child's life or not - so, what she thinks about his role in their DDs life is meaningless really, isn't it?

[grumpygoat79]

Yes that's a good way to put it. Thanks wakey

[coalscuttle]

If the mum is so narcissistic and awful why does the dsd thrive when with her?

[MeMyselfAnd1]

I wonder if instead of an alienated child you are having a very hormonal teenager visiting?

They tend to have, at times, a very warped perspective of things and many say "I don't want to see you ever again" to at least one parent, even when the parents are still together.

It maybe that she is being alienated but to be honest I wouldn't be surprised at all if she is giving exactly the same treatment to her mum. It is not unusual really and it flourishes where the communication between the parents is scarce.

[WakeyCakey45]

coalscuttle It's very well researched and documented that DCs raised by a parent with personality disorder traits will thrive/succeed if they acquiesce and comply with their parent.

That's not to say they aren't damaged long term - but as a child, they develop coping strategies. They become hardened to their parents irrational rages, cease to look-forward as the future is never fixed, and align themselves with their parent against others - even their other parent, as well as teachers and other people in authority.

A child who is conflicted about contact with one parent due to the implacable hostility of the other almost invariably ceases to be conflicted when they are no longer expected/required to have contact with the hated parent. It stands to reason, doesn't it? The conflict goes away, they feel better and in addition they are favoured and rewarded by their remaining parent for being a good DC and rejecting the other.

[grumpygoat79]

Yes, that's all exactly it wakey.

Well I see that they have a had a massive treat day today which is to my mind dsd's reward for what she's done to her dad. Heaps and heaps of happy photos online full of gushing comments about what a wonderful daughter she is. DH is pretending it doesn't hurt but clearly it does.

It's definitely alienation. She won't thrive for long... We've seen it play out before.

[LittleLionMansMummy]

Sorry but I wouldn't bet on it. Dsd and dh fell out over some minor thing 3 years ago and she hasn't seen him since. No warning tantrums, no 'warm ups' just said one day that she never wanted to see him again and that was that. We've given up on ever seeing her again tbh, though dh continues to send cards and letters. She's thrived the whole time, aced her GCSEs and is now studying A levels apparently still doing well. We had to draw a line under things for our own sake in the end and no longer hold any hope she'll come back. Every special occasion used to be torture as her silence sent dh into depression and brought our marriage to breaking point. It was a case of moving on or destroying our life. I really hope it doesn't end up like this for you op, but don't assume the thriving thing will be short lived or that she won't go awol for longer next time. That's the insidious thing about alienation.

[grumpygoat79]

God that must be so hard littlelion. In so many ways I'm afraid I kind of hope it's for real this time. She brings so much drama in to our lives and my poor dd suffers as a result.
The problem is though that when they do this its like a living bereavement. You can't really move on when she could actually come back at any time. It's so cruel.

How did you and your husband move on?

[grumpygoat79]

Wakey I just read back through this and picked up on the future never being fixed. One of the things dsd said was "mums dating and I know she'll meet someone easily so who even knows where we'll be living this time next year!" Like it was a positive thing. She's just waiting to see how successful mum is in her man hunt to find out what turn her life will take next. I can see why she'd feel like nothing is fixed and there's no point looking forward. This time last year we heard they were all emigrating to Australia with the last boyfriend

[WakeyCakey45]

It must be awful for a child, never being able to rely on the permanency of things in their life.
Where they're living, which school they go to, whether contact with their dad and other family members will be "allowed", or even simple things like whether a planned day trip, holiday, birthday party or even just shopping excursion will go ahead, or whether some unseen, unexplained influence that they are expected to understand will change things.

[grumpygoat79]

It really must be. And the irony being that DH will always be the one in the wrong for ending the marriage when that could have actually been the one unsettling thing in dsds life followed by sensible handling and support but instead she had all this to deal with.

It's tragic but my dd and my DH are my priority now. I've said it every time but i need to just support them now.

[LittleLionMansMummy]

It was very hard for quite some time grumpy but we've managed to focus on the positives. We have a 3yo ds and I have another dsd who is just wonderful (weird that it's a completely different outcome with the second and I wonder if even her mum now realises it was wrong to encourage no contact with the first). We are all very close and have lots to be happy about. The hardest thing now is trying to remind ds that he has 2 sisters, as he just doesn't understand. It hurts me more that she has abandoned her brother. He called her on her birthday and left a message just saying happy birthday. When he put the phone down he said to dh "but I don't know dsd". But we've just learned to harden ourselves mentally. She's still there of course but is right at the back of our heads mostly, with just an occasional nudge of sadness that we push away. She is pretty much a clone of her mum - looks, attitude, personality, behaviour. Dsd2 is very much like dh but equitable in her affection for both parents in a way that, looking back, dsd2 never was.

[grumpygoat79]

I'm pleased to hear you've found a way to cope. But yes, very sad for your little boy. My dsd is the sitting image of mum too. I wonder if that makes it harder for the child? To know mum and dad don't get on but that she's so much like mum. It would be hard to have a believable relationship.

DH was talking about this trip to the theme park this morning. I said to him if my dd behaved how dsd has behaved over the past couple of days she wouldnt be taken on a trip! She'd be told to go and apologise to her dad. But no, it's rewarded.

[LittleLionMansMummy]

The last point you make is an interesting one. The final nail in dh and his ex's marriage was when she returned from a shopping trip, dh told her the girls had behaved very badly and yet she still gave them the treats she had bought them. He was undermined at every opportunity and sadly that has continued. Their presents, days out, holidays and everything else has always cost an absolute fortune and ours have paled into insignificance beside them. This has resulted in a selfish, ungrateful, wholly materialistic 17 year old who has been rewarded for those negative behavioural traits. When it happened when she was 14 I was able to explain it away as teenage behaviour and an obstructive ex, but now she's approaching adulthood I find it harder and harder to excuse her behaviour. She has treated dh utterly appallingly and all because he dared to parent her in a way her mother would never do.

[WakeyCakey45]

littlelion we must be living parallel lives. I'm battling the dilemma of whether 17 is old enough to be held accountable for that behaviour given the poor parenting and abuse she has experienced.
I'd really appreciate your views on my thread if you have a moment?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/stepparenting/2156019-When-can-a-child-be-held-accountable-for-their-own-choices

[grumpygoat79]

I'll check out your thread tooWakey.

Littlelion, I think this started way before the divorce too. So many stories about DH being undermined. The worst one had to be when mum told dsd aged 9 that after mum and DH had argued mum got her revenge by scraping his toothbrush around the toilet pan. I mean.. How was she ever going to respect him??

[thebluehen]

My dss hasn't seen us for 2.5 years now.

We had years of dsc mum telling us what we were doing "wrong". The kids were also told.

The 3 girls all continue to have contact with varying degrees of positivity towards their life with us.

Dss has had huge amounts of time off school and has had the welfare officer involved several times, he has also had anger management counselling and I understand has been in fights at school and is apparently being bullied.

I think he is the unhappiest of all the step kids but ultimately he does very little of what is expected of him. He has been given a long rein by his mother but instead of spreading his wings and flourishing, he has become insular and difficult. I suspect she feels she wants to "reward" him got siding with her.

It could be "being a teenager" but I also think it has a lot to do with seeing his sisters live a normal life with us whilst he feels he can't.