Money Question

[doyliewoo]

Hello all - This is my first post but I have been lurking around for a while :) I was hoping to get some advice/another perspective on money issues. Will try to keep it short.

Bit of background - DP and I have been together for 6 years, I have DD (7) and DSD (9). There were some contact issues when we met but these were resolved quite early on and we are lucky enough to have easy going flexible arrangements with our ex's. My DP had not been with his ex for 3.5 years when we met. My DP and his ex were not really in a relationship when she got pregnant but they tried to give things a go but it didn't work out.

We have DSD EOW and at least 70% of the holidays (it is a 200 mile round trip to pick up and drop off).

My DP is such a lovely devoted father and incredible SD to my daughter.

My question is around money. DP pays well over the amount determined by the CSA (happy to) and always pays for extras such as school trips, gives extra for uniforms etc.

DP's ex has never worked (we both work full time) and has actually said to DP that her job is to bring up his child and therefore shouldn't have to. The problem we have is that she is constantly asking for extra money on top of everything he already gives her. We are also aware that DP's ex has quite an expensive habit (another story). We already feel that the money paid to DP's ex is not used for what it is intended. DSD arrives with clothes that don't fit, doesn't really get much off her mum for birthdays, christmas etc. We gave extra for a school trip only for DSD to tell us that mum had 'borrowed' it and hadn't paid it to the school! So because of these issues DP is loath to give ex any extra cash as we simply don't believe it is to benefit DSD. She takes money off her DSD to pay for petrol and cigarettes (we now hang onto any money of DSD's at our house to prevent this from happening).

This is were it gets tricky, the latest request is because (she says) she can't afford to pay for any of DSD's school uniform. DP offered to pay for most of the uniform but said we would take DSD out and buy it ourselves when she is with us in the summer holidays. This went down like a lead balloon as she wants the cash. The problem is we know that she will get the bare minimum for DSD and keep the rest for herself!

DP is terrified of rocking the boat and refusing to give her extra cash but feels he is being held to ransom at the same time. What should he do? We both feel that we have to draw a line in the sand at some point or this will never stop.

We know we can't dictate how the ex spends her money but why should he continually give her more when we know it's not going to benefit DSD?

Sorry for the length of this - would appreciate an outside perspective.

x

[catsmother]

Given the ex's spending pattern (and "habit" ???!!) I'd be inclined to give her the CSA determined amount and retain the "extra" he's previously been giving her so it can be either spent or saved directly on or for SD.

There'll be little - apart from bending his ear - she can do about this as there's no point in her going to the CSA if he's confident he's paying what he should. And if she starts telling SD that he doesn't "care" and similar such rubbish, she's probably just old enough now to have the situation simply explained to her, as in, the "government" decide how much he pays her mum and then, on top of that, he also pays for (insert as appropriate - e.g. school trips, uniform, activities etc).

So bloody what if she doesn't "like" his suggestion of buying uniform. I'd say it's essential that he does rather than give her the cash if he thinks it won't be used for that purpose. If she genuinely wanted uniform bought rather than money, she couldn't possibly object to this proposal ... I couldn't have cared less if my ex had offered to physically buy uniform, in fact I'd have been pleased at him saving me a job. Similarly, all future monies for school trips or activities that he's happy to pay for need to be paid directly to the relevant bodies.

Yes .... no resident parent likes being "told" how to spend their money - I certainly wouldn't have done when I was a single mum but then I didn't make my child lose out or lie about what any money I asked for was intended for. So far as the CSA equivalent sum is concerned, he can't object to her spending (or lack of on SD) unless it's to the extent where SD's actually being neglected which would be a different issue. But I think he's entirely within his rights to spend any "extra" money as he sees fit given the history here.

He is being held to ransom - and you're right it'll never stop until he stops it. What is he scared of if he stops the "extra" ? .... if it's contact being cut then he needs to get a contact order at the first sign of that. Most judges would take a dim view of any "pay per view" type contact obstruction.

The more he gives her the more she'll ask for even more - and it'd seem, sadly, that whatever he gives her it's not being used to benefit SD so it's far better he takes control of the situation and is proactive about buying stuff for SD directly. By the sounds of it SD won't be any worse off if he reduces "her" (the mum's) money - but will be better off as he can then spend it on her and/or save it for her.

(I'd also send the uniform back without any tags in case she tries to take it back for a refund!)

[Lucked]

I would just stick to doing a shopping trip for school when she visits. Try not to engage much he could just say "You have told me dd needs a new uniform, I will take care of it."

The only alternative would be tell her to send you the receipts and you will reimburse.

Can the school be paid directly for trips etc?

[Lucked]

Personally I wouldn't resort to CSA determined level if he wants yo give more. The amount of income parents spend on their children varies from family to family.

[IDontDoIroning]

The money is for the sds welfare and should be spent on her.

I know it's difficult for lone parents and it's often not possible to isolate the direct costs for a child but it's clearly wrong if her mother is taking the extra money and not using it as her father intended and taking the school trip money is beyond awful. I assume you are implying a she has a drink or drugs problem - that in itself doesn't automatically men she's a bad mother but if she is asking for extras and then doesn't use it for what not she asked for then I think that's terrible. I expect I will get a pasting for saying that though.

Continue to pay the CSA minimum adjusted for overnights etc but keep the extra and put it into an account in her name which her mum can't access. Also clothes etc uniform should be bought by her df and trips etc should be paid direct by her father to the school or wherever.

[catsmother]

Of course the amount each family spends on their children varies and there are so many infinite different circumstances that it's damn near impossible to say for sure how much a child actually costs. I do think it's great he's prepared to "give" more than CSA because obviously he wants his daughter to be looked after as well as possible ....

... problem is, there does seem to be significant evidence in this case that the daughter isn't benefitting as her dad would hope her to be. For example, the school trip money disappearing, clothes which don't fit and money being taken directly from the child. I don't include the quality/quantity of presents in that list because yes, parents have different ideas about suitable presents, regardless of affordability ... but the other stuff is pretty standard, and the mum's reaction to having the apparently needed uniform bought does suggest - with the past history - that she was more interested in cash rather than clothes.

So, the only way the child is going to actually benefit from any "extra" money is if the dad takes control. It shouldn't be like that I agree but the alternative seems to be that if he just carries on paying what he has been to the mum SD will lose out. It's pointless if he strongly believes the extra part of that isn't going to his daughter.

[purpleroses]

We're having similar problems with DH's ex at the moment. The best way forward I think is to stick to the required CSA amount - or maybe stick to whatever amount he's always paid if you can afford it - to be paid to the ex and spend any extra direct on the DSC. You could check with her first if she has any specific requests or preferences over what uniform you buy, but there's not usually much choice, that's the point of uniform.

[FlossyMoo]

Terrible situation to be in OP but I agree with others that he should take her shopping when she is with you for the holidays.
I know there is a fear of rocking the boat but sometimes you have to be firm, fair but firm.
His priority is not the ex it is DD and if you are concerned that the money provided will not meet her needs sufficiently than I think there is no option but for you DP to take her shopping. At 9 yo she is old enough to know what items she needs and you can then guarantee the money is spent correctly. I would also remove the tags to stop any returns.

[Whereisegg]

I would not only remove tags, I would name the items with a sharpie too.

Your dp can contact her school and be added to the email list (or get a code for parentmail) which will allow him to receive trip letters, and hopefully pay online too.

We had this to a lesser degree with dss, mum receiving ample maintenance yet dss arriving every week in clothes and shoes that I have no idea how he got on tbh.
Every week he would go home in a well fitting outfit from ours and we would never see it again.
We never saw the ex in the same outfit twice, and she would drop off saying she was off to hairdressers and beauticians before going away for the weekend, great have a nice time and that, but dss was standing in clothes that would fit my ds who is 5 years his junior.
Sadly that is not an exaggeration.

Dp had a polite word a while ago and things improved.

[fedupbutfine]

If she genuinely wanted uniform bought rather than money, she couldn't possibly object to this proposal ...

I genuinely would like my ex to contribute towards the costs of bringing up our children but I absolutely object 100% to any suggestion that he should buy what he considers appropriate. It is a massive, massive control issue for many PWC that their ex does this and is, in many situations, entirely inappropriate.

[Whereisegg]

I agree it can be about control in a lot of cases, but based on this thread I think the advice to provide uniform instead of cash is appropriate.

[FlossyMoo]

Also think given the circumstances of this thread that buying the uniform is not about 'taking control' as such it is about ensuring that the money provided for uniform is actually spent on uniform/school equipment.

[LadySybilLikesCake]

I wouldn't have a problem if my ex bought ds's school uniform, it would save me the time and money, and the money saved could be used for other things for ds.

From what you've said here she's using your OH as a cash cow, sorry. You really do need to put a stop to this. Any sensible parent who isn't spending cash on themselves wouldn't mind for the reason I've said above. Asking her for the receipts and refunding her is a good idea. Make sure you keep the receipts though so she can't return the items once she's been refunded though.

Sometimes the RP sends the child in old clothes because they are not sure they will be returned. I sent ds in his favourite clothes once and they were returned ripped to pieces because ds had been sick and his father had ripped them off him

[doyliewoo]

Thank you everyone for your responses you have all actually confirmed what we were thinkning x
Dsd is starting new middle school in september so we are going to ensure any future trips are paid to the school. I agree a firm but fair approach is required and we will definitely be taking her shopping ourselves this year.

We both have a strong work ethic and I have provided for my daughter financially on my own since she was born. Dp does not contribute and I dont expect him to but I think the ex feels this is the case.

I think she feels entitled to the same lifestyle that we work very hard for she asked for money last year to go on holiday (not with her dd but with friends! ) but hey thats another story.

Dps fears are around the ex slating him to his dd (she does this regularly) and his dd going without. Providing this directly to dsd will remove that.

Thanks again for practical useful ideas may even post again lol
Thanks for your useful tips xx

[KneeQuestion]

What is the 'habit' you mention?

If it is drugs, then in your DPs shoes, I would be going for residency.

[LadySybilLikesCake]

Yup, she's using you as a cash cow. There's no way in hell I'd ask my ex for money so that I could go on holiday, even with ds, that's just wrong on so many levels. I work to support my child, I don't expect his father to 'keep me'. You really do need to cut the maintenance down to the minimum and buy your dsd anything that she needs yourself. If her mum needs more money, she should go out and earn it like everyone else.

[lunar1]

I was going to say the same, get your dh to buy the uniform, then wash and label it all!

[captainproton]

DH's ex likes to try and use us as a cash cow too. Because we are rolling in it apparently. Last year we got a price list from the school uniform outfitters. His ex then told us what she was purchasing and we funded half of it.

We double-check everything she asks us to go half on, then when she asks for 50 for something and actually it only cost her 50 we just send over 25 without getting into an argument/discussion.

We also used to send over and above the CSA rates to the ex, but we also had suspicions that she was not using the money for looking after DSS. When DH and she finally got around to their financial settlement she had racked up so much debt since separation that she was paying over 800pcm in servicing it, new car loan, 3 credit cards (1 belonging to her new DP), and another loan (which she gifted to her new DP). That's where our CM is going.

I recently bought him a load of new clothes and new shoes. I got his feet measured they were 2 sizes bigger than the shoes he was wearing, he hadnt had his feet measured in over 18 months. All the time he would say his shoes were fine, when asked so as not to rock the boat. But I couldnt let him walk around in shoes 2 sizes too small.

She gets nearly 350pcm and we pay for his phone, laptop and half of all his school expenses.

DH says she was alsways racking up credit card debt, and that she never opened bills. It wouldn't matter how much we gave her it would never be enough. The woman earns about the same as DH so she is not financially dependant on DH like your ex is.

At some point you have to stop feeling sorry for them and put the money aside for when the children get older. That is what we are doing. We are going to give it DSS when he goes to uni, or if he doesn't go to uni, to put towards a house deposit or car.

[grumpygoat79]

He pays what he wants to i.e. CSA plus what he feels appropriate. Then if it's not enough he buys what his DD needs and takes that amount from the "extra" part the following month. If it happens on a monthly basis then, fine - ex still gets CSA amount, and the kid gets the things she needs.

[Bessiebigpants]

I only feel it fair to point out Csa minimum is fairly low.Gingerbread has some excellent checklists surronding the costs of raising a child and who pays for what and how much.Its a real eye opener in many cases for both parents and certainly a good way to start discussion on shared costs of raising a child.If your dp does not want to get into conversation he could ask ex to fill them out to give him a bit more of an idea on the invisible costs of raising their child.Re school uniform and shoes etc It is totally appropriate that her father take her uniform shopping No parent would decline an offer of help with such a massive outlay.

[ConfusionAndDelay]

Bessie- how can you say the CSA amount is fairly low? It's a percentage. So it may be low to someone when ex is minimum wage or unemployed but it's not low for someone who has an ex with a reasonably well paid job.

[Happybeard]

Ex and I did that list and it turned out his 180 a month was on the nose right so in our case CSA was an accurate calculation.

[fedupbutfine]

So it may be low to someone when ex is minimum wage or unemployed but it's not low for someone who has an ex with a reasonably well paid job

I know that with 3 children, as a PWC, I pay out way, way more than 25% of what I earn on child-related 'stuff'.