When can a "child" be held accountable for their own choices?

[WakeyCakey45]

Like many stepmums, I've repeatedly been hurt and rejected by my DSC. I understand all the reasons why; the conflict they feel, the fear they have of upsetting their mum, the punitive consequences they are subject to if they challenge her, and the bewilderment of coming to terms with their mums determination to exclude DH (and I) from their lives.

But, do those reasons justify their choices and behaviour for life? Or does there come a point when an adult child, particularly one who acknowledges they treat certain people badly, can no longer be excused?

My DSD is approaching adulthood and independence. She is aware that her behaviour has hurt DH, myself and my DD. Yet, it continues. Her fear of what may happen is too great to risk upsetting her mum.

DSD behaviour is understandable, but is it something I should accept and tolerate? Should I continue to accept her poor behaviour towards me because of the hostility of her mum? For how long?

And if so, should I not be equally tolerant and accepting of her mums behaviour? Because her mum was a child victim, too. Should emotional abuse in childhood be accepted as a reason for treating others badly in adult life? Should I put my own feelings, and those of my DD to one side, in order to accomodate the emotional limitations of my DSD, and her mum, because those limitations are the result of abuse?

[robotroy]

It sounds just generally like you need to talk. Does your step child know how you feel? I think that it may even take until step kids have kids of their own that they really question behaviors, but I do think that its reasonable to stop them sometimes and highlight what they're doing. I don't mean being accusatory you are a blah blah, I mean talking about the specific behavior, when you do this you make me/ the family feel.....

[StercusAccidit]

No answer but blatant placemarking as i'm sure the non SM's who have invaded this board recently finger wagging will be along to 'help'

Very good question by the way :)

[Fairenuff]

How old is she OP?

[ChiefBillyNacho]

It's a tricky one to negotiate that's for sure. It takes a lot of resilience. What I found helped was being able to vent and cry, let my hurt out. Then having shed my emotional response I would take a step back and look at the bigger picture to gain an understanding of where the behaviour might have originated from, then see if there was something I could do to help that.

It's about setting boundaries around acceptable behaviour, while also showing love. It's easy IME with your own children, with step children it's a hard path to walk.

Behaviour like you are describing isnt going to change over night, or when they reach a certain age, and she wont have an aha moment so I think it is about tolerance and acceptance while also holding some boundaries. It's a bloody minefield!

[Priesty77]

No answer as in same position, so following. Hugs x

[riverboat1]

Very interesting question, especially given the current wave of insistence that the parent is entirely responsible for having made the child what they are. I think this is undoubtedly a factor, but the child's own character and choices surely have to come into it somewhere too.

On other boards you often see parenting dilemmas posted with responders saying things like 'assuming the child is NT and no issues then he's just being a brat and needs to be firmly disciplined/punished' but then as soon as a step situation is mentioned that is automatically the reason for a child's bad behaviour and slack must be cut a long way.

I think the tricky thing us balancing all the different factors - age, trauma of separation, parental influence - and deciding where to draw the line. And how - by imposing harsher punishments? Telling the child in plain English you hold them responsible for their actions? And what about the SP's involvement in all this versus the parent's?

I think people are living in a fantasy land if they imagine that stepparents should always be directing frustration towards the parents and only feel love and pity for the children. Except maybe in the case of very severe trauma or very young children I just don't think things can be that black and white.

[Elizabeth120914]

My OH gets very cross with dsd when she decides she's not coming and sadly her mother won't inforce contact so we are stuck.

Dsd is 11 so not a teenager as such but he feels she is more than capable of understanding the hurt that's caused when she decides she has a better offer or won't come unless a treat is offered.

I agree that she understands in the short term but tend to think she can't understand the longer term implications of lack of contact/ feelings of grandparents etc.

When we talk to her about it she will back track so very hard to actually find out what's happening.

Yes her mother should make her come and is lacking in many areas but then dsd has an input too it's a very tough one interested in answers..

[Fairenuff]

I don't think you can 'make' and 11 year old do anything really but you can give a choice and that's the trick in getting co-operation from children/teens.

"You either do or ", then let the child decide and follow through. The consequence can be withdrawal of a privilege but the main thing is that it is their choice so that they can't blame the adult.

"I hate you, you never let me do anything!"
"Well, it was your choice to give up the trip to the cinema remember, not mine"

That sort of thing...

All said in a calm, rational tone of voice of course

[riverboat1]

Fairenuff how would that work where the required action is coming for your contact weekend though? Any consequences that you promise will be followed through on your next visit just make the child even more likely to stay with the other parent to avoid said visit.

[WakeyCakey45]

To answer questions; she's 17, and has been living independently at College for the last 12 months.

Her behaviour for the last 4 years has been cyclical - she rejects DH and I and becomes her mums BFF, periods of no contact that last several months - ignoring any contact and not acknowledging birthdays, Father's Day. Xmas etc. During which time, she will randomly do things that seems totally out of kilter with her decision to go no-contact; for instance, adding me as her "stepmum" on Facebook despite not having spoken to me for months, texting me complimenting me on a new hairstyle if she's seen me out and about - but no further interaction if I reply.

Then, there'll be some crisis - she and her mum have a falling out, or she gets into some bother that she doesn't want her mum to know about, and she turns up unannounced (once, in company with arresting police officers, and another time so drunk that she needed medical treatment).
DH and I help her put things right, talk to her about her behaviour, discuss what she wants/needs from us, talk about her relationship with her mum - and for a few weeks or months, she juggles a relationship with us and trying to keep her mum happy.
But, it gets to hard, and sooner or later, she drops us again, because her Mum isn't happy, or is making demands that don't fit in with our own expectations. there's often a scene during which her mum finds out whatever secret DH and DSD have been keeping from her. DH gets the blame, DSD becomes the poor, abused victim and she and mum are BFF again.

I can't see this ever changing, and I'm increasingly unsympathetic to her conflict and drama. Her younger brother (DSS is 11) is similarly affected and has behaved equally "badly" but he's a child and I don't feel the same way about him; even though he's made direct (false) allegations about me in order to support his Mums attempt to block contact through the court.

But DSD is functioning in society as an adult; no allowances are made for her by her employer, friends, college staff - yet I'm expected to not only accept her behaviour towards me, but when she needs me, I'm expected to drop everything and rescue her. DH is brilliant - he doesn't ask anything of me, but on the odd occasion I've disengaged and not got involved with DSD, she's sought me out directly, and also given DH a hard time for my lack of interest.

[goldenlilliesdaffodillies]

On a positive note it is good that she goes to you and DH when in trouble. It shows shes trusts you and knows you are there for her. However having been in a similar boat with YSS I know how frustrating it can be at times. I also think at 17 some teenagers think the world revolves around them and they just cannnot see how selfish they are being. I think many teenagers are like this whether they are stepchildren or not.

However things can change and they really can get better. My ESS was extremely difficult growing up. I never thought things could change. He is now 24 and a really lovely young man who is kind and caring. He became like this after he left university and went travelling. This was when his mother stopped having an influence on him. It was a long time coming but he is such a lovely lad that it was worth the wait. I am hoping YSS will follow in his footsteps!

[Fairenuff]

Fairenuff how would that work where the required action is coming for your contact weekend though? Any consequences that you promise will be followed through on your next visit just make the child even more likely to stay with the other parent to avoid said visit.

Yes, I agree it is more tricky under those circumstances but once the child understands that there will be consequences, albeit of their own making, then they are more likely to make carefully considered choices, especially if they are given the time and space to think about their decision rather than just pressured to do as they are told which could result in them digging their heels in just for the sake of 'winning'.

With a 17 year old, living independently, I would be more inclined to treat them as an adult. If they can behave with others and function in society, I would expect them to show more respect.

[WakeyCakey45]

DSS, who as I said is 11, has placed very specific conditions on contact with DH - which he openly admits are what his mum tells him.
He only wants a "Saturday afternoon" dad, will only agree to contact if there's a trip/treat involved, refuses to come to our home or to have any contact with me.

I really do struggle to see how "consequences" would work in that situation - even bribery doesn't make a difference! For example, he refuses to come into the house even for a few moments on the way to a theme park and accepts that the consequence will be that he misses out the trip. He'll go months without contact if thats what his mum wants with no apparent ill effects - he expects to pick up where he left off. As I said, I can accept that a little better because he's so young - I refuse to keep my house/life in statis until he decides to come back though - even if that results in more anger and upset from him.

The only positive thing about the situation I find myself in is that everyone is honest - DHs exW is open about her desire to exclude DH from the DCs life, and the DSC are honest about their motive being to keep their mum happy.

I know I should feel sorry for DSD, and recognise that she needs the safe haven that DH and I provide when things go wrong for her. But you know, I'm sick of her dramas, and being used just to bail her out when I get none of the positives. I don't get to share the excitement of her going to her school prom, or college ball - I just hold her hair back and mop up her vomit afterwards. She can't be bothered to tell me the grades she achieved in her exams, but I'm the one who dries her eyes, deals with Soc Serv and supports her when her mum has lashed out because those grades weren't good enough.

[peggyundercrackers]

I dont think the behaviour should continue to be excused - she needs to be accountable for her actions. if the behaviour continues and you let it continue you are enabling it and the cyclical patterns to continue, it becomes self-perpetuating. it must be hard for a step parent because im sure a lot of them carry around a lot of guilt and try to make up for it in other ways however the real issues are never addressed, they are just masked and never resolved.

someone in my family is going through some issues just now and it rips my knitting - they wont accept that they are the only one who can change things by carrying out certain behaviours. the only person you can control is you - what others do isn't within your control but how you behave towards others is in your control - if to control it means changing your number, not answering calls/txts/emails etc., going NC or whatever then thats what you need to do and accept the fallout from it however don't be part of the drama like the other person - they thrive on the drama and its what drives them - don't feed their drama, break away from it.

[Fairenuff]

I think with the 11 year old, once he realises you're not bothered about his decisions, he might decide off his own back that he does actually want to see his dad so, as far as he is concerned, I would say, ok, if you don't want to come that's fine. It's a shame as we'd love to see you but we respect your decision and then just be there for him when he does come. No bribery, no special treats, no conditions, no punishments. Just the natural consequence of not seeing his dad.

The 17 year old does sound very confused and tbh I think if you can ride it out, she will realise how much you have done for her and that you were there for her. This doesn't mean that you have to put up with all her crap though. Decide what's acceptable to you and what isn't and, again, stick to it.

[dogfish22]

There seems to be a confusion between taking responsibility and teaching responsibility.

It is the task of a parent to take responsibility for things their child can not take responsibility for yet. This changes the older they get. I.e. the more cognitive mature the child is, the more responsibility they must take for their actions. With an almost adult child, there should be no question about this!

Teaching a child responsibility means consequences to bad behaviour. There must be no abnegation for children who had some sort of trauma, as that would teach them that they are entitled to special treatment because of this. They are not. The world is a mean and cold place at times, and parents are there to protect their children from this to a degree, but also to prepare them for it.

Bringing them up to become passive aggressive towards a step parent or anyone else they feel threatened by, will just produce a self centred, nasty person who thinks that other people are beneath them.

For example: I noticed recently that my DSD is sometimes treating me like a peer, hence not necessarily deserving her 'respect'. This is not on. I'm the adult here, so I will not allow this kind of behaviour. Of course she is testing boundaries, and as step parents we are often shying away from giving firm consequences as a result of injury to these boundaries.

Please remember this: The trauma these children went to is an explanation for their behaviour, not an excuse! Nobody is doing them any favours in letting them get away with it. All this causes is resentment out of misunderstood dynamics.

I would just ignore whatever tripe her mum is telling, and put down some house rules. At the moment you are failing to protect your DD from the negative influence your DSD is, as she will notice what DSD is getting away with.

[WakeyCakey45]

She says she knows she's treated us badly, she's begged me not to leave her (I offered to step back and not be involved if it was easier for her) and then a few days/weeks later, it's like we don't exist - although she obviously doesn't want to cut off all contact because every so often she'll do something (like comment on a FB post, or suggest to a friend that she apply for a job working for me) that makes it clear she's still a part of our lives.

I understand why, but I'm increasingly reluctant to accomodate it. I suppose, like most species, human children are eventually expected to behave like adults or face the consequences - what I'm struggling with is when that point is reached.

[WakeyCakey45]

I would just ignore whatever tripe her mum is telling, and put down some house rules.

House rules result in no contact. Mums influence is just too great.

When DSD turned up, under arrest, in the company of police officers, she begged DH not to tell her Mum.

We discussed it all together, as a family, and agreed that in order for DH to be willing to do that, he would expect input into DDs life. He said that she must agree to spend one evening meal a week with us (fitted in around her other commitments) in order for her to experience our values and morals. We couldn't ground her, or punish her, but we could demonstrate positive choices in our own lives which would hopefully have an impact.

It lasted less then a month. The grief she got from her Mum because she was spending so much time with us was to hard for DSD - she backed out of the agreement, and she and DH told her mum together about her arrest. There was a scene - DH was the scapegoat for "blackmailing" DSD into spending time with him and she never wanted to see him again.

That was 10 months ago. We've had no interaction since - just a "like" of certain FB posts now and again. She's clearly still interested in us - but won't reply to our contact or initiate anything herself.
But I know the pattern. There'll be something else. In a few months - she'll fall out with her mum, or get into a mess over something - and here I'll be, expected to pick up the pieces.

DH is brilliant. He's always so grateful that I'm prepared to help and he recognises that DSDs behaviour has cost me emotionally and financially.

[fedupbutfine]

there's often a scene during which her mum finds out whatever secret DH and DSD have been keeping from her

why encourage her to keep secrets from her mum? surely the answer to this is that mum needs to accept that her daughter has a relationship with both her parents and that if she's unable to do that, dad needs to be working on coping strategies with his daughter (preferably ones that don't involve her taking sides - which keeping secrets is, surely?). Surely daughter needs to be able to stand up to mum in an appropriate way and mum needs to deal with the consequences of not allowing a relationship between father and daughter (which may be that eventually, her relationship with her child is compromised. Could you cope with having an adult 'child' move in with you?)

I am not sure that a 'child' of 17 shouldn't be accountable for their actions, regardless of how badly treated they may have been when young and regardless of how 'helpful' this bad treatment may have been in shaping the older child or adult. By far the majority of us grow up knowing the basics of wrong from right (with a healthy understanding of the shades in between), regardless of the circumstances of our upbringing.

The issue you are faced with, I think, is finding suitable 'consequences' which make her understand just how awful she is being so that she focuses on correcting the behaviour, rather than keep going round in the circle you're stuck in. I suspect your husband needs to start with being clear about appropriate boundaries - and keeping secrets from mum probably isn't, in my opinion anyway, an appropriate boundary.

[WakeyCakey45]

Surely daughter needs to be able to stand up to mum in an appropriate way and mum needs to deal with the consequences of not allowing a relationship between father and daughter

DSD isn't able to stand up to mum - she's said she could never do that to her mum. We did discuss her living here at one point, she even changed her address at college, but she didn't go through with it; her mum began loading her belongings into bags and throwing them down the stairs while screaming hysterically, so DSD changed her mind.

Anyone who disagrees with their mum, especially, DH, is regarded as hostile by the DSC. Anything their mum disapproves of that the children do is taken as a personal insult by her - and it's not proportional; her mum will threaten to destroy all DSD belongings, hit her, pull her out of college, never speak to her again no matter what the transgression - buying a SunnyD drink, staying out after curfew, committing criminal damage - they're all the same in her mums eyes and the reaction is immediate, inconsistent and often reversed later if she feels guilty, and she'll then compensate by treating them to something special.

[ClashCityRocker]

It sounds like a really tricky situation and one that's been exasperated no ends by her mother.

Whilst I agree she is old enough to take some responsibility for her actions, I'm not sure how you are going to make her accountable. As someone said up thread, these are reasons for her behaviour, but shouldn't be used as an excuse for her to be cruel.

If I can offer a little ray of light, I didn't see my dad for nearly two years at a similar age and for similar reasons as your dsd. At the time, I felt like I had to choose, and my mum needed me more - particularly as my dad had moved on with his life. I now see him regularly, we have a good relationship and I feel comfortable with letting my mum know when we're going to see him.

She may well work it out for herself - in the meantime I guess all you can do is keep the door open.

[peggyundercrackers]

From what you have written I don't think your or your DHs issue is with dd - it's with her mother and the way she uses dd. You/he needs to confront her about her behaviour, call her out on it every time, stop her using dd.

[WakeyCakey45]

peggy What do you mean by 'call her out'?

She's not going to change her behaviour, she's told Magistrates, CAFCASS, and social workers that if she had her way her DCs would never see their Dad again, because they don't need him anymore.

She's been to mediation, attended the SPIP, been counselled by the headteacher at DSS school - what can DH do to "call her out", when she believes she's right?