I need DH to stick to his guns - advice please

[Petal02]

As most of the regulars will know, we have a very strict access rota for SS, who?s nearly 17, and leaves mainstream school at the end of May. Friday nights are a good example of the insanity: DH has to leave work early to collect SS from his mother?s at 4pm, whereas it would be far easier to pick him up at 5.30pm. Why don?t we change this? Because the rota states that Friday pick-ups happen at 4pm.

After Christmas, DH agreed that once SS finished his exams in May, it would be an appropriate time to cease the access rota, and have a flexible visiting arrangement. This was music to my ears, and DH assured me he?d told SS about it, and that it was all fine. This has been a real ?light at the end of the tunnel? to me, and it?s kept me going over the last few months.

Last night, SS was with us, and DH mentioned that he would be working away for a week in July. SS enquired if this would interrupt the access rota. I responded that as we would be on the flexible arrangements by then, it wouldn?t be an issue. You could have heard a pin drop, and SS asked when I meant by that. DH didn?t say a word. I cautiously said ?I thought your Dad had mentioned that when you finish your exams in May, that you?d be seeing us on a flexible basis.? SS replied that his Dad had suggested something like that for ?when he?s a bit older?, but hadn?t realised he meant imminently.

I was waiting for DH to jump in and overrule me, but he didn?t. He asked SS if he?d have any problems with this, SS hesitated and said he wasn?t sure, DH didn?t back-pedal ? and reassured him that if he wanted to visit us, he should let us know, and we?d arrange to collect him. SS was clearly not happy with this, and DH wrapped up the conversation and said we?d talk about it nearer the time.

SS then went upstairs, DH looked at me sheepishly. I really didn?t want a huge row. It was evident that DH had indeed spoken to SS about it, but apparently in very vague terms. DH went on to say that he definitely wants flexible arrangements, but ?it?s important we sell this carefully to SS, he doesn?t like change. Let?s leave it for now.? Admittedly SS doesn?t like change, but we?re not advocating anything enormous. He?s still welcome to visit, but simply on a flexible rather than rostered basis. He?s nearly 17, and if such minor changes traumatise him, then surely it?s time to toughen up slightly? Also, I don?t think should be SS?s decision whether or not we continue with the rota. DH is the parent, and whilst obviously he?ll want to be gentle with him, needs to be firm. I believe DH, when he says he doesn?t want to the rota any more, but I can tell he?s terrified of implementing even minor changes that may displease SS.

Later in the evening, I overheard SS/DH talking about this ? SS was concerned about the flexible proposal, and DH cautiously said all would be fine if we implement flexibility. So whilst it?s clear that DH is attempting to stay firm, I?m now quite worried about this. The thought of continuing a strict access rota for a school leaver is just bizarre. We have exactly the same days/timings that were put in place when SS was 10, and nothing has changed since. When SS had gone back upstairs, DH promised me we?d be dropping the rota, but said it has be approached very carefully. We weren?t arguing, and there weren?t raised voices, and I?m pleased at how I handled it. I?m just terrified that if SS puts up much resistance, DH will back down, and we?ll be stuck with this rota indefinitely. I know I need to proceed very carefully too; things have been easier at home just recently ? I believed the end was in sight regarding the rota, so I relaxed a bit. The thought of DH giving in is just incomprehensible.

Any advice please?

[WkdSM]

What does SS plan to do when he leaves school? If he is getting a job then they won't really be willing to let him off on a Friday early to see his Dad.

As you say - maybe it is time for him to grow up a bit.

Maybe strat the flexibility with different pick up times rather than different days - ie push the Friday pick up back to later.

The otehr issue is - does your DH really want to go flexible or does he forsee SS ringing up at inconvenient times saying - come pick me up'?

[Petal02]

WkdSM - I genuinely believe DH wants flexibility, as he recognises that SS needs to start living more like a young adult, and less like a young child.

I think the Friday pick-up time is only the tip of the iceberg; the real issue is whether a young person of SS's age should still want/be permitted to stick to a strict access rota. It seems really odd to me. The ultimate casualty in all this is SS - if he continues to be shielded from growing up, he just won't cope with uni/work/reality.

[silverfrog]

what are relations with dh's ex like?

what is she like with SS, and what kind of things does she say to him about dh/you/visiting?

maybe ss wants to stick to a rota because he is worried that. once it finishes, he won't see his dad as much?

it might seem as simple as "just" arranging to come over flexibly, but y dh's ex, for eg, won't let that happen.

my step childrne are guilted out of it, and dh is pushed to the bottom of a long line of things to do, as they do not want to push the isue with their mum.

if your ss has had years of knowing that his mum is not happy about him visiting his dad, then he might still need the rigidity of a rota (with obviously some changes made to accoutn for jobs etc) as he may not feel able to stand up to his mum. I know my step childrne can't, and they are older than 17!

[Petal02]

DH hasn't had any real contact with his ex for years. She refuses to co-parent in any way. However she's never tried to stop DH from seeing his son, quite the opposite. She can't get rid of him fast enough. So she may be keen to continue the rota, simply because she knows she gets SS out of the way for specific periods of time. Although we don't know this for sure, we're just guessing.

DH is keen for SS to find a job, but realises we'll never find him a job that fits in with the access rota, at least not til SS can drive and afford a car (because of the distance between us and the ex). SS doesn't want to let go of the access rota, which therefore means he's going to find almost impossible to get a job, or voluntary work placement etc.

You could almost see a situation whereby he's 25, unemployed, simply because nothing fits in with the access rota.

[allnewtaketwo]

Oh Petal - first of all it's good to see you back, was wondering where you were (I was complaining about a 'rigid access schedule' problem just earlier today!).

No wonder you're feeling worried about it now. I agree that it is utterly starting that any young adult aged 17 wouldn't welcome with open arms the chance to have more say over his comings and goings. It's such an alien concept to me that I am still constantly , even though I see it in front of my own eyes regularly with DSS1.

I can see where you're coming from silverfrog - but my question I guess is, where/when does it all end? So say for example, Petal's DSS starts work. He manages to get over the trauma of going to dad's at say 6pm rather than 4pm. But every other weekend, without fail, he goes for his access visit. Given that he has seemingly do desire to change this, does he potentially still have access visits when he's 25? I know one would sort of hope that by that time his attitude would have changed, but what if it hasn't? Where does that leave Petal/her DH? At that stage, it would be too late to stop it, and so imho it needs to be tackled now. We've all heard of the 40year olds living at mum's/dad's.........

[allnewtaketwo]

cross posted Petal - see we're both worrying about what happens when they're 25!!

[silverfrog]

I would say (speaking form own experience here) that just because ex seems happy to get ss to stick to the rota, and spend (restricted, predictable) time with his dad, doesn't mean she isn't running him down constantly.

we have exctly this situation - dh's ex is all too happy to send the children here, on the days she has set out, and the times she says (its yet another way to control dh and the children). but even though the children are now adults, both of them, flexible visits cannot happen.

we can see them flexibly enough when they are at uni, but not during what ex sees as "her" time - ie uni vacations. then, everyhitng has to go through her, regardless of what the children actually want.

it may well be that ss is totally conflicted as to what he shoudl eb thinking/feeling.

I know that the itmes that both my step children are clingiest, and most tactile, and properly childlike, have been the times followwing soem prolonged running down of dh by his ex.

they don't know what ot do, or say, to get their mum to stop this, and cannot stand up to her. and it makes them very confused, and they revert to real childlike behaviour when here - its the insecurity speaking, if you like.

is yuor ss generally anxious, btw? at school, or apprehensive about finding a job etc? it sounds as htough he will need a lot of support once his life changes by him leaving school.

[allnewtaketwo]

silverfrog does that not drive you to total distraction?

When I was on summer hols from uni I was travelling across the world and phoning home occasionally! The thought of my mum deciding where I should go next would have resulted in a quick 'mind your own business' I'm guessing

[silverfrog]

sorry, x-posts, allnew.

yes, I know what you mean.

but I do htink it sounds as though petal's ss needs a lot of support to get through this. doing it suddenly is not going to work, as he is already anxious about it.

if his mum really is that keen to ensure visitaiton - maybe he also thinks that no-one wants him? his mum is always packing him off, and now his dad is saying to reduce contact (because that is what willhappen once contact is flexible, isn't it?) - where does that leave him, apart form feeling like nobody wants him?

sometimes, the more you (one) push for something, the harder it gets resisted.

he sounds like a deeply insecure lad, who is railing against the thought of anything more changing - plenty of teenagers do actually like to spend time with their parents. if he is doing this to the detriment of relationships with his peers, then yes it is worrying, but again, it all points ot a deeply insecure lad who is struggling with his life - whether due to hormones, or down to somehting else, it sounds like he needs help.

[Petal02]

Hi Allnew! I agree absolutely with your post - where does it all end? Of course DH/SS want to see each other, I wouldn't have it any other way, but WHY OH WHY does it have to be rostered? I understand that small children need routine and consistency, but surely that doesn't apply to school leavers?????

I smiled at your comment about SS being able to overcome the trauma of arriving with us at 6pm instead of 4pm - you clearly understand the irony of that; that a 2 hour change in schedule for a 17yr old would be construed as traumtic. And that's the problem with DH, he feels that even a minor change in arrangements would traumtise SS, and this should be avoided at all costs. It's like he's made of glass. We're cultivating a generation of wimps.

Sadly though, he'll struggle to find any sort of employment until he stops the access rota, hence my comment (which you clearly agree with!) about being 25 !!!

It's so frustrating. I just don't know what I'll do if DH backs down on this.

[silverfrog]

allnew - me too!

yes, it does drive us crazy.

dss is doing just that - he is away during vacations more than at home (just as he should be!). but it still comes down to the fact that when at home, he cannot flexibly see dh. he is getitng better - we saw him recently, and he arranged to meet dh for lunch when he is back form his next trip (but I bet his mum doesn't know!). but he will not just pop down here, for eg, nor will he do this come Christmas if not formally arranged with his mum ok-ing it.

dsd is another thing entirely. but she has AS, and lots of issues due to that. but she is a lto like Petal's ss - lots of clinging when she is here, cannot do a thing if not rota'd, can't do anyting without checking with mum - and she is 22! she is about to drop out of uni, and I was looking up somehting she could do next - I found the perfect thing, sent her a link, and said it needed to be applied for NOW (closing date looming) - her response? "I'll check with mum whether it's ok to do" AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH was my inner wail, while I gritted my teeth said "ok then, but better hurry"

she missed the clsing date, as her mum didn't get back to her. more wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I shoudl stop caring, but I can't.

[Petal02]

When I finished mainstream school, I went to the South of France for six weeks, to stay with my pen pal, and before I departed I'd arranged to work in a french pastry shops from 8am-1pm each day. It was a wonderful experience. I then went into sixth form in September.

When DH left mainstream school, he joined the armed forces. Which is why I climb the walls at this 'softly softly' approach to the most minor changes to SS's life. I can't even re-paint his bedroom in case it makes him feel unsettled.

I agree that SS needs help during this transitional part of his life, and I've no problem with that. But DH actually perpetuates the sitaution by pussy-footing round him all the time. I doubt his Sgt Major tiptoed round him on the parade ground when he were SS's age.

If he can't cope with coming over on a Weds instead of a Thur, or a Mon instead of a Tues, then it's a very worrying situation.

[silverfrog]

so it's not just about the contact that ss gets very easily upset?

he is anxious over most things in life?

I think he (and his parents) need help - he shoudl not have been left to be this anxious for so long.

what you did, or his dad, is irrelevant, tbh. you clearly weren't as scared of your own shadow as he is.

he (form what you have posted) doesn't have proper peer relationships, he cannot function in daily life situations without having a concrete plan, nad he is deeply anxious about a lot of things.

he needs help.

[Petal02]

I wouldn't say SS gets easily upset over 'normal things' - but the rota does seem to be a big deal to him. We've reassured him that he's still very welcome to visit, just that it will be on a flexible basis.

At the risk of sounding cynical, it's in his interests to stay with the rota, because it gives him an excuse to avoid any sort of extra curricular involvement with sport, peers, part time job etc. I think he hides behind it. So this, combined with DH's fear of upsetting him in any way, often means I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

He doesn't want to be independent, all his decisions are made for him, all his needs are provided for - why would he want to change it?

[silverfrog]

But you see, that isn't normal behaviour.

it is one thing to want to see your parents and spend time with htem, but if he is doing this to the detriment of normal peer relationships then there is somehting wrong (I stress IF he is doing htis - doe she have good peer relationships when at home with his mum? or doe sth esame thign apply?)

It really sounds like he has some issues, which arenot going to be solved by forcing him to reduce contact.

I do get what you are saying re: hiding behind it, and not wanting to get job, softly softly approach, but it doesn't sound to me (admittedly an outsider) a sthough this is the full picutre.

if you can't paint his room because it will unsettle him, he can't/has no interest in sport/friends/teen stuff, has no focus in life and no thoughts of a job/career/furhter education - this is not a happy boy.

if he really does panic over the thoguht of changing access time form 4pm to 6pm (or similar) - this is not normal.

have you thought about trying to get him some outside help/support for his issues?

[Petal02]

Slverfrog - I agree with you, but DH insists it's all quite normal. Which is a typical male stance; ignore there's a problem, and it saves you from dealing with it. He always takes the line of least resistance.

[silverfrog]

petal - it sounds as though he may be doing a very typical denial thing.

men often do. it's as much about thinking they might not be able to cope as actually denying there is aproblem, though

have you doen any reading up on anxiety disorders/AS/social issues?

maybe of you could present dh with somehting concrete that fits ss to a T, he might htink differently?

ultimately, if ss is struggling with social issues, then he is unlikely (given his age now) to just get over it himself - he is going to need help.

whehter that help is remaining a child long after he should, and being protected by his parents until such a time as he finds a ew situation to take over this protective role (relationship/job with benefits), or by being helped to overcome these issues and deal with them effectively is the only thing to be dtermined, really.

what do his school say re: involvement in socail situaitons/sports/community of the school?

[theredhen]

I totally agree with what you are saying Petal and I can sense your frustration with both DP and DSS. It's like because he has 2 homes, he isn't allowed to live a normal existence?!

Be careful what you wish for though. We are getting more "flexible" arrangements as the kids get older, which generally means that we still have the rigid rota and no support from ex wife, but now we also have kids for extra time because ex wife can't be arsed is far too busy to be a taxi / loook after her kids and because DP is desperate to see his kids and anything less than 24/7 isn't enough, we are running around pretty much every day now. Flexibility isn't always a positive thing!

I think your DP and his ex are both incredibly selfish and not helping your DSS to grow into a responsible adult at all.

My Mum pushed me to get a Saturday job when I was a teenager and as I was painfully shy, I hated her for it, BUT it was the best thing she ever did for me as I developed so much confidence and I had loads of money for clothes etc.

[allnewtaketwo]

I think there are 2 possibilities:

1. as silverfrog says, he may have genuine issues which need to be resoved
   
2. he has, through being carted to and fro and being babied for so long, grown to be quite apathetic. His decisions have been made for him, and he has grown to feel confortable with this. Any change to this status quo will challenge the familiarity of this 'cotton wool' approach under which he has been raised. Thinking for himself for example, may not be a concept he has ever even thought about, and is uncomfortable with having to make this leap. This 'apathy' has been encouraged by the parents, who have cocooned him in a sureal upbringing
   
   fwiw I think my DSS1 fits into the latter category.
   
   Most of all I pity his future girlfriends/wife. Can you even imagine being in a relationship with someone like this? If DSS1's future wife was to ask him what he thinks about anyone his answer would start "mum says..."

[allnewtaketwo]

theredhen - I have thought about that prospect as well. When any mention is made of more flexible arragements in our case, my main concern is that these will be over and above the rigid weekends, not instead of (although I doubt their mother would allow this )

[Petal02]

I think my SS also falls into the ?I?ve been carted between two houses for so long that my brain no longer functions properly? category, and has indeed become apathetic. His father was extremely keen to have the access, his mother couldn?t wait to get him out the house, so even if he?d wanted some ?variation? it would have been unlikely to happen. And when he?s with us, real life is suspended, and I agree totally with the poster who suggested that living in two homes has meant him not living normally.

However regardless of how we got to this point, he needs to be gently encouraged towards more age-appropriate behaviour. If we preserve the status quo just to avoid bringing him out of hibernation, nothing will ever change.

I was interested in the comments about how flexible visiting may increase access. This had crossed my mind, however despite DH?s terror at ?waking up? SS in any way, I don?t actually think DH wants to increase the access. Whilst he?s always been keen to have every minute of his allocated access, he?s never pushed for any more. Hopefully that won?t change!

[allnewtaketwo]

pmsl at hibernation

[Petal02]

I suppose what I'm really asking, is whether SS should be the one who decides on the arrangements. I personally don't feel that his apathy should be allowed to dictate our lives. I feel that providing we make him welcome when he visits, that a flexible arrangement is quite in order for a young adult of his age.

[allnewtaketwo]

I think it is correct for your DH to encourage more age-appropriate arrangements. Not sure what you can do though if DSS refuses

[FreudianSlippery]

Wow, I've read some of your threads before petal and it's just not normal. Is DSS scared that he'll end up seeing his dad less?

Does DSS not realise how bizarre this is? Never going to see his mates on a weekend and saying "sorry dad, I've got somewhere better to go"?