What should maintenance cover?

[careerwoman]

Quick q regarding what should be reasonably covered by maintenance?

DSS is 18 and learning to drive. DH's ex just changed her car, admittedly to a smaller one so DSS could drive it, but its much newer and more expensive than her previous car, and she used money from her payments to fund it. (We know this as there was a discrepancy in DH's payments, purely accidently on his part, which meant she got a lump sum. The new car turned up 7 days after the cheque was given...) However, she has then asked DSS to pay for his own insurance - nearly £2k a year.

DH's ex gets over 1k a month (for 2 DSS only - it was a clean break settlement, so no maintenance for her). Is it unreasonable to think she should be able to fund the car insurance for DSS from this? DSS got a reasonable amount of money for his 18th birthday from us and DH's relatives, but this was not to pass onto his mother...

Clearly, this could all be a trick to ensure that DH coughs up more money to pay for this too! Clearly, we will pay, but, given she also has new partner and additional child, makes you wonder what the money is funding...

[ChocHobNob]

The thing is, the Parent With Care can spend the money as they see fit. There is nothing the Non Resident Parent can do about it .. unless of course the children are being neglected and then SS should be contacted.

In reality maintenance is to cover a proportion of day to day costs for the child, utilities, food, clothes, extra activities/costs.

What it could be reasoned is while your husband was paying less than he should be (resulting in the lump sum) the PWC was paying more of their own income for the child, so once the lump sum was paid, some of that money was technically the PWC's to claim back.

At 18, does your step son have a job? I don't think it's really that unreasonable to expect an 18 year old to fund their own car insurance just because it's a luxury really and not an essential.

[LadySanders]

i think an 18 year old could fund their own insurance not ask parents to cover it - but i can't see why it should come out of the existing maintenance money, it is an 'extra' expense, isn't it? my exh and i tend to share 50/50 any large extras over and above the maintenance he pays for ds1, i suspect that's what i'd ask for if it were me.

[careerwoman]

I do agree to an extent with both of you. I guess part of the issue is that we currently pay for all of the 'extras' - golf lessons, pocket money, mobiles, etc. We would happily pay 50/50, or even we talked about 3 way split including DSS, but DH's ex doesn't seem to want to know.

I do feel like the more we pay as extra, the less DH's ex pays from the maintenance money. But, as you say ChocHobNob, it is up to her what she spends the money on. The other quibble is the lump sum came in part because she refused to acknowledge the 'extras', plus some payments that were given in cash. But then, that's DH's fault for not keeping a record of these!

[LadySanders]

it's a tricky one - if it's reasonably amicable then hopefully you can agree something, but i suspect it's one of those things that both sides will always think they are doing all the compromising. my exh won't pay half of ds1's specialist dyslexia tutor as he thinks it should come out of the maintenance, for instance. but he does contribute to other bits and pieces here and there as the mood takes him. i have to bite my lip a lot, but he probably does too. and if dss is 18, there can't be much longer left to go before the maintenance stops completely, so it may be worth just putting up with it.

[LadySanders]

i'm confused about the 'she has a new partner and child' line too... my exh says the same to me... but we agreed maintenance for ds1 long before i had a new husband and children, so i don't understand why he thinks he's funding them...

[GwynAndBearIt]

cw, just as an aside and perhaps a heads up, my DSS has recently passed his test and the cheapest insurance we could find was just under £3K, and this was after a great deal of hunting and jiggery pokery.

Also, if he is not yet insured for provisional there is a company who will provide prov insurance for 3months, then in further blocks of weeks or months just adding on until he passes.

You may already know this however, but the thread just caught my eye as we've just had to deal with this, and DSS passed very quickly !

[careerwoman]

LadySanders - unfortunately, maintenance continues whilst they are at university. To be honest I completely back this, as I think uni is very important. DH and I have already agreed we are happy to pay extra when he's at uni too, but need to make sure some of the maintenance is going to him too, rather than just our extras.

I guess ultimately, I think she should have asked us for a contribution before asking DSS. Unfortunately things are not amicable - money is always the problem!!

[careerwoman]

GwynAndBearIt - this is for insurance on his mother's car as an additional driver. Insurance for his own car was totally un-doable! The main problem is that he has been learning for a year and failed a couple of tests because he's not getting the practise. We tried to insure him on my car, but can't because he doesn't live with us.

Have just spoken to DH and suggested we offer 50%, on the basis that the ex and DSS pay the remaining 50% between them. Reasonable?

[LadySanders]

sounds reasonable to me!

[Petal02]

My husband?s consent order states that he stops paying maintenance when SS leaves sixth form ? however we?ve decided to keep paying the same amount each month while he?s at university, but the money will be paid to SS, not the ex. We?ll happily help fund his uni education, but we know that if the money went to the ex, it would never get spent on SS.

We don?t mind paying for extras, providing the ex makes a contribution too. To be fair, I don?t think she has a lot of spare money, and so if we can buy SS some extra things then we don?t mind.

[WinterLover]

CW - when I passed my test my parents (still married) paid 50% of my insurance. I had to work or do jobs for them to earn the rest.

It is more difficult in this situation though :( I think the split you suggested is fair :)

[careerwoman]

The consent order states until first degree for my DH. Petal02 - I assume you can pay direct to SS because its your choice to do so? We suggested a few months ago paying DSS directly when he's at Uni - lets just say it wasn't a goer.

[GwynAndBearIt]

Yes the 50/50 sounds very reasonable, the insurance thing is a nightmare! and the boys are getting heavily penalised, DSSs girl cousin passed recently too, hers cost less than a 3rd of his.

Good luck with getting it resolved

[Petal02]

Careerwoman - DH's consent order states that maintenance is paid til the age of 18, or when SS finishes A levels, whichever is the latest. However we're happy to help pay towards his uni costs (even though we're not legally obliged to) or maybe we'll pay for his student accommodation, something like that. Car insurance is always a tricky one, simply because it's so damn expensive!

[houseproject]

Careerwoman, Typically CM is only payable til a child reaches 18 or when CB finished but I guess your DH signed this financial agreement to continue support until the child is 18. I don't think it's the right approach for the ex to receive CM when the child is 18, my dd is similar age and I would hope that she could be trusted to manage her own finances.

[SecondMrsS]

The great thing about once their at uni is the money can then be paid direct to the child rather than through the RP.

[SecondMrsS]

In my day you paid for your own car insurance or you didnt drive! Car insurance isn't a 'need'

[theredhen]

Personally, I think CSA maintenance is not always worked out to be very fair. 15/20/25% of a low income, can be a crippling amount for a nrp to pay, whilst, the same percentage of a very healthy salary means the nrp still has plenty of money left over every month if their outgoings are low.

I also don't think RP should "expect" anything above and beyond CSA. If NRP choose to contribute extra because they can, then all well and good.

Sometimes I think RP just keep asking for more money for specific items for the children so they can spend more on themselves with the CSA maintenance. That's certainly been some of what I have seen with various parents over the years.

[Petal02]

Redhen, that's an excellent post.

I know there will never be a "one system which works for everyone" situation, but the percentage calculation seems so wrong. DH has a friend going through a divorce - the amount he pays his ex barely leaves him enough to live on - and there's no way he could ever afford to start a family with a new partner. No way on earth, which seems wrong.

The CSA also seem to forget that the non resident parent still needs to have a big enough house to accommodate the children during access periods, so you can't assume that all non resident fathers should live in tiny flats. Sadly, broken families tend to mean that one salary then has to support two households, rather than one, and it doesn't always work.

[LadySanders]

it's a really difficult one and i agree with petal there is no one size fits all that would work... i do hear of men who are find it very difficult paying the %... and on the flip side there are men like my exh who is a stockbroker and only has to pay maintenance based on his basic salary, despite the fact that the huge majority of his income is bonus rather than basic, so what i get for ds1 ends up being a much lower %. similar difficulties for women whose exh is self employed...

[SecondMrsS]

Redhen - great post. I've heard a lot of RPs say that maintenance is to pay for rent/food etc for them and the child, therefore they ask for a contribution towards other individual items that the child needs becuase the maintenance wont cover everything.

In my mind that is un-fair as the nonRP should be paying for half the childs costs, not the costs of both the RP and the child.

However, in the case of someone like the OP, the nonRP earns a lot of money but never sees the child so the child doesnt get the benfit of it, and so he needs to pay his required CSA payments so that the child can have a quality of life in line with his father's earnings.

[LadySanders]

unless things have changed since i got divorced 3 years ago, the child maintenance and spousal maintenance are treated separately, so the 15% is purely for the child. i got 1p a year spousal maintenance from exh.

[SecondMrsS]

Exactly petal why should a nonRP, who works hard, live in a tiny flat so that the RP (who may not even work at all) can live in a big house? Doesnt seem fair does it. And most of the time, that NonRP would give their right arm to have the children live with them!

This is why i beleive (on the whole and where possible) while couples are together they should be earning 2 salaries so that if in the end they do split up, one parent isn't left with the financial burden of everyone... But i digress

[SecondMrsS]

I'm not expert but I beleive spousal maintenance is pretty much non existent now that women have the freedom to support themselves.
If you divorce you obviously get half of the assets (or debts in most cases!) of your spouse. But not maintenance.

[LadySanders]

'most nonrp would give their right arm etc' is a VERY sweeping generalisation in my experience. as is the point about RP not working... there are many marriages where there is an agreed split in which one person goes out to work and one person takes on the vast majority of the domestic and childcare work, which is something that i would hope most sensible judges take into account. i didn't work for a year after my exh left, and he paid me more maintenance to cover my living expenses whilst I wasn't earning a salary. When ds1 was at full time school I got a job so that exh could drop back to the child maintenance payments only. I (and he) thought that perfectly fair since we had made a joint decision when we had a baby that i would not return to work.