Could you give me some advice about IEP please?

[inthesark]

The conversation with school went something like this:

Me: You know you said you were looking at giving DD an IEP?

School: Oh, yes, she's got one.

Me: Ummmm, somewhat dumbstruck because I thought that parents were meant to be at least informed when their child got an IEP, if not actually involved in the process. Or have I got that completely wrong?

This is all in the context of a bit of a barney with school, who have a habit of agreeing to do something and then not doing it, so I think they may just have knocked up the IEP in a hurry when they realised it had been forgotten, so I'd quite like to have my facts right before I get back to them...

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Write to them. Say that today you asked if the draft IEP has been drawn up yet and were informed it had been, so could they let you know when the IEP meeting will take place as soon as possible as you will have to arrange childcare and are keen not to cause any delay to confirming it.

[LightAFire]

The IEP q is a tad woolly. They have to inform you if your child is on the SEND register, but IEPs are (I think deliberately) left a little vaguer in the Code of Practice. Have a read of p52 in particular, but you might find other parts useful too: www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/0581-2001-SEN-CodeofPractice.pdf

On p54 it does state that the "IEP should be discussed with parents", and realistically in best practice yes you should be informed and involved (for reviews of it too) - they might though be able to cover themselves by saying they told you they were looking into it. I think you're right though - they probably did it in a hurry! I like Starlight's suggestion for how to approach them over it. Good luck!

[inthesark]

Yes, I have to write a reply (this conversation is happening by email) so will say something along those lines, thank you. Thanks also for the link, I have skimmed through that but will look properly when I am less tired tomorrow.

TBH, most of this is a giant communications fail on their part; we had a meeting just after half term with the deputy head and head, about a set of provisions that were going to be looked into. Then we hear nothing, and not a sign of a change at school. So we write a slightly questioning email. And apparently she does have an IEP, which was what we asked for. It's hard not to reply, well you could have sodding well told us?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

So I suppose you could just say 'Oh great. Thank you. When will I see the draft?'

[LightAFire]

Don't blame you for being tempted to give a sarky reply! If she has an IEP, then there should also be corresponding changes at school, since the entire point of one is to record that which is different to the provision other children have...

The document I sent you is long (and wordy!) but you only need the section corresponding to her age. Or is there anything else specific you need to know? (Ten years as a primary teacher, friends with an excellent SENCO, so happy to help if I can.)

[inthesark]

LightAFire - ah, that's interesting. In which case they miiight be using the IEP to record the changes already put in place (some 1-to-1 for example). Or at least they could argue that. Still would have been polite to tell us though, you'd think.

Oh, and when I said slightly questioning email, that was not actually true. Somewhat challenging might have been more accurate. Which is why I want to get my facts right before I reply.

Starlight, yes that is perfect though!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I turned cheeking in my journey and when the school failed to produce an IEP I submitted my own .

It was blimmin excellent though. They refused to implement it and the HT told lies to the Governors to the extent that we had to flee, but that is a whole other story.

[inthesark]

I like your style I may yet end up in that place myself the way this is all going...

[Handywoman]

inthesark is your school my school!?! I have exactly the same problem with my SENCO, who I've also fallen out with and complained to gov's about when she said my own anxiety was causing my other dd's maths difficulties (she's dyslexic). IEP has been promised for dd2 and I fully expect them to forget about it then cobble something rubbish together on the quiet. I will be having the same convo as yours above quite soon...

[LightAFire]

inthesark yes actually they might well claim that, from the sounds of it.

I think technically they don't have to tell you before it is written, but it would have been a) good manners and b) better practice. Certainly you should have been informed at some point rather than having to challenge.

And handywoman own anxiety was causing my other dd's maths difficulties (she's dyslexic) I don't even know what to say to that!!! Aarrgh!

Ladies the only consolation I can offer is that there are changes coming in which should mean more input from parents, so it is a current "hot topic" in education. If having problems you could mention that with the coming changes to SEND policy that you're sure they'll be keen to get on board and show outside observers like Ofsted that they're already well on top of the situation and involving parents...

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'Ladies the only consolation I can offer is that there are changes coming in which should mean more input from parents, so it is a current "hot topic" in education. If having problems you could mention that with the coming changes to SEND policy that you're sure they'll be keen to get on board and show outside observers like Ofsted that they're already well on top of the situation and involving parents...'

I like your optimism. Herts were supposed to be a pathfinder. They took the money and didn't even go looking for any paths, only justification for the status quo which as far as I remember was extremely anti-parent.

[LightAFire]

Wow that's depressing!

I think the trouble is (as both a mum and a teacher) that there currently exists a "them and us" mentality. Whereas the ideal scene to me has always seemed to be parents and teachers working in partnership for the good of the child... but then I have a lot of odd ideas apparently!!

I do hope the changes make things better - I have several friends with SEND children also battling - but I must admit I am not holding my breath...

[inthesark]

I've just realised (slaps forehead in dim fashion) that I had a meeting with the SENCO on Thursday. Admittedly that was only about pencil grips. But you'd think, if there had been an IEP, that she might have mentioned it.

LightAFire - I'd love to do that, in fact I know that I've researched more about some aspects of DD's provision than they have, and could find them some useful advice but I can't say that because it would be telling them how to do their jobs.

[inthesark]

Rest of conversation has been going on with Deputy Head...

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Teachers (generally, not individually) are so defensive with everyone (inc government/media etc.) blaming them for all of society's ills that they are totally unprepared to take on board suggestions/advice/recommendations from parents as well.

Partnership working only ever appears to work where the teacher/school has the power and a parent is humble and grateful like a kind of outreach model. As soon as the parent becomes more knowledgable and visibly wants to engage, the teacher (with up to half a day of optional SEN training) runs for the hills and becomes unavailable and often agressively defensive (is that a term?).

That's not all schools, and it certainly isn't all teachers, but it is the current picture at a general level.

[crazeelaydee]

That's the experience I have had StarlightMckenzie and so far that has been with the past 2 teachers, we did think that this one would be different (more understanding?) but sadly the patience have warn thin because Ds can not be forced with punishments to complete his work....you'd of thought that after almost 3 years they would of noticed this. It seems as though the more I try to help or make suggestions the less they want it.

[inthesark]

Aggressively defensive is not only a term, it's the best description ever of what I get back from school!

[Flappingandflying]

I write IEPs. Parents always get a copy. The IEP is written with the pupil whenever possible and all staff are invited to contribute. The targets should be short, measurable and achievable so no 'i will improve my writing' as thats too general. They should be reviewed twice a year. In big schools there might be a group IEP which covers students with less specialised need who have the same fdifficulties. It is something for parents. They are onerous to do. I'm just doing mine now and for 50 kids its going to take about three weeks.

[Handywoman]

Aggressively Defensive. That's it! Nail on head.

[LightAFire]

I'm 100% sure some teachers are, yes - especially with what I hear from friends. It saddens me immensely as it shouldn't be this way. However, teachers also have to face some parents who can be aggressive defensive too. So just as you sometimes get parents saying "teachers don't listen", teachers can feel the same way about parents. That's what I mean about the them and us thing - the end result is both get frustrated and seem to stop listening to each other!

I reckon parents are the experts on their particular child and also probably their particular needs, since as you rightly say teachers can often only offer half a day's training vs your years of research! However the teacher is likely to be expert in other areas, and that's why I think the two need to be put together for the best results.

Happily this does happen in some places (and I've been lucky enough to teach there!) but I fully appreciate it's not the general picture. My closest friend has a SEND child with a physical impairment and his school are failing to give him the correct support and it's just heartbreaking. Here's hoping it does get better in the future all round, and wish you all the very best of luck!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

If there was a 'them and us' mentality (and I'm not sure I agree with you tbh, parents almost always desperately want a good relationship with their children's school, - could it be that perception of them and us is what drives the agressive defense?), then which side truly should address this?

The parents? Or the people who's job it is?

[StarlightMcKenzie]

Sorry, posted too quickly.

The bottom line is them and us is neither here nor there. Teachers and schools have a duty to meet the needs of the child and are paid for that. There should be uniformity in the level of professionalism.

Parents don't require the same standards sadly which absolutely should not let teachers off the hook.

[CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs]

Aggressively defensive. There is no better description of my DS's Primary HT.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

I suppose what I mean is that just because 'some' parents don't listen to teachers, doesn't make it reasonable for 'some' teachers not to listen to parents.

It doesn't work like that. Or it shouldn't.

[LightAFire]

Starlight As a mum and a teacher, and as someone who is friends with non-teachers and teachers, I do see both sides of the question. Sorry this is so long, but been thinking about it all a lot lately, and you raise some interesting points which I'd like to address.

Teachers also want a good relationship with parents, believe it or not! They worry about Parents' Evenings, and they fret about having to tell parents about their children as they never know how people are going to react. They may come across as aggressive/defensive as they are anxious and wondering if yet again this is a parent who is going to start swearing and shouting or throwing chairs about (both happened to friends of mine, and in both cases where a child had been fairly told off and yet the parent still objected violently.) Plus as you yourself pointed out they get a lot of criticism all round.

And although I think that yes there should be standard professionalism as far as possible, teachers are humans, not robots. There will be variations, just as you'd find across doctors, police, and any other profession. To expect otherwise may be the "ideal scene" but is somewhat unrealistic - in any area of life.

I agree teachers should listen, of course. But I don't think it's actually listening that is the problem. It's agreeing. The majority of teachers are also parents, but the majority of parents have never taught a class and so it's hard for them to really empathise with what it's like to be considering 30 children all at once, not just one or two. Sometimes what the parents feel/know their child needs, or even what an Ed Psych suggests, just can't be done, whether for time, money, or lack of staff. Or, not without neglecting the other 29 children and upsetting their parents.

To give you an analogy, imagine if you had an injury which you had researched and understood really well. Would you go to a surgeon and tell him precisely how to operate on it, step by step? You'd surely more expect him to listen to you and then work out what he could realistically do to help? Unless you had also been trained for years and had the same experience, you wouldn't know all the things he needed to consider no matter how well you understood your own injury. Teaching is a bit like that. No they don't know your child like you do (or probably the need they have either) BUT they have years of experience in a classroom and will have known hundreds of children - sometimes (not always!) they do know what they are doing and that some things sadly cannot be achieved in a school setting. You say they expect you to be "humble" - no, but just as you want them to acknowledge/respect your (undeniable) superior expertise over your particular child, they want acknowledgement/respect of where they have more expertise than you.

HOWEVER all that said, I am fully aware that, just as not all parents will throw chairs or refuse to accept their child is not top of the class, not all teachers do as they should. And not all of them will know what they are doing either, and it must be absolutely maddening to deal with them. I'm also sure some are arrogant, really just don't listen, or communicate really badly (they get no training in parent relationships by the way!), or maybe don't even care, and (as in any profession I guess) the bad experiences seem to give the rest of us a bad name. I've certainly spent a lot of my free time lately helping other parent friends to sort out issues with their children and schools, especially with regard to SEND. And FWIW I'm not thrilled with my own DD's teacher right now either!!

I have thought a lot about what the solution is too as I see all these news articles and read things on MN and worry - I don't honestly know. I guess better training, and also probably incentives to attract more and more top calibre people into the profession, so that there is a better chance they will deliver the service they should. I also think it would benefit parents to understand more of what schools are trying to achieve, since I think the communication (from the school's end) is all too often vague or misleading and thus leads to more problems. And yes, I think the schools should be addressing that one rather than the parents. State schools though have their hands well and truly tied by government policy, so maybe we should all campaign there! I've been told recently that most people in educational policy have no education experience, so maybe that needs to change too?

And finally, I didn't actually think there was a "them and us" mentality either until I joined Mumsnet (since I've always worked closely with the parents I've known). At which point, I've discovered a fairly constant stream of criticism regarding teachers even where I have been doing my best to help and support parents where I agree their particular school has not done as they should, as in this OP's case. Once again I am very sorry to hear that you have all faced so many problems. I hope that maybe I have given you a bit more insight into what might be going on in teachers' heads to help you get what you need from them, or if not then I hope you can at least see that some of us DO care, and some of us work very very hard to ensure children and parents are both happy. I personally love helping people - it was why I started to teach in the first place, partly why I joined MN, and why I commented on this thread at all.

Anyway I shall bow out now and leave you ladies to it. I wish you all a successful resolution with your respective schools, and better times and teacher experiences in the future!