Repetitive physical abuse in the classroom in Y3 - is there no way out of this danger? (

[DarthVader]

There is an autistic child in my dd's class. He attacks and injures other children regularly in class despite having 1 to 1 supervision. The classroom is unsafe - with an attack that causes serious and permanent injury waiting to happen. There is no suitable alternative provision for this child and his mother wants him to remain at the school.

Meantime he is endangering all the other kids. I am considering removing my child. I am all in favour of inclusive education for special needs children but not when they endanger the physical safety of my child. Where do I go with this, I am beside myself with the situation.

I have no criticism of the school, the child or the mother but the situation is untenable.

(Reposting on this board thanks to suggestions from other mumsnetters)

[nimnom]

I had a similar experience recently. I run our village toddler group and we had a child coming to the group who had been coming for a while but had only recently had a diagnosis of autism. His behaviour was very similar to what you describe and in the end and after seeking advice from my hv who also turned out to be his hv, I had to ask him to leave which was awful but necessary. He is just about to start at pre-school where he will have one-one teaching. I have been involved in this end of it too because I am on the pre-school committee and also my son will be in his school year. We are hoping that with the one on one teaching he will be OK but I would have no qualms in speaking to the teacher if he is violent towards my child.
I too believe in inclusive education but only to a point. Having spent quite a lot of time with this child, not only was his behaviour disrupting other children but also was not a positive experience for him. I think you are totally within your rights to speak with the school about this.

[needmorecoffee]

The failure is with the system, not with the child and you should be talking to the school and insisting they do something useful.
Inclusive education toa point? Children with disabilities have every right to be supported in mainstream education and the school should have set up a system that caters for all the child's needs. Sounds like the school is being useless.
Nimnom, does your school have a sound understanding of ASD? The correct support? This lad is being failed by the school system.

[flyingmum]

Just to add that the mum of said child probably had no alternative but to send him to this school. To get a child into a special school is hell, requires a huge legal battle, lots of money for assessments and a high level of literacy and cognition. Not everyone has this at their disposal. If the child has a statement and has 1 to 1 then it is up to the teacher and LSA to see when ASD kid is about to go ballistic and try to remove from the situation. My eldest son has ASD and although he is totally non violent was disruptive because he had huge tantrums. I'm sure that some other mums worried about the effect that he had on their children BUT the meltdowns decreased, the school and he learnt coping mechanisms and other children benefited from considering someone else other than the 'norm'. His old school miss him and speak very fondly of him and the 'gift' that he gave them. I do understand your concerns - my other son is in year 3 and keeps mentioning a little boy in his class who obviously is either very very very naughty or has significant SEN to cause his behaviour but it is early on in the academic year, its a new start and some children take several months to settle down. I would, however, have concerns if children were being regularly hurt - the level of supervision is not good enough and its not going to help this child be intergrated because most sensible kids will steer clear. Is it possible that some of his reactions are from being 'baited' by others. I'm a teacher and also mother and know this goes on. The last ASD kid that I taught did put someone in hospital but that was because two of the class had wound him up in the corridors to such a degree he couldn't handle it anymore and lashed out when going to a lesson. I'm sure it isn't much of a consolation but the child's mother is probablly also beside herself with worry and upset about her child, his behaviour and the possible outcomes.

[DarthVader]

I think other children gain from the inclusion of special needs children but if their physical safety is endangered, then that is where I draw the line in order to protect my own child from potentially serious and permanent injury. If frequent physical attacks despite 1 to 1 supervision were not an issue then I would have a completely different take on the issue.

I cannot find it acceptable that an ASD child could put another child in hospital even if that child had wound him up -although clearly winding up such a child is wrong. This child's outbursts are often unpredictable although he must be generally under stress I think. There is some degree of winding up on occasion according to the head.

[flyingmum]

I didn't say it was acceptable and the school did not treat it as such and he was excluded for a fixed term. The boy he hit was taken to hospital as a precaution it was just a real shame he was a totally innocent party. The two other boys who had done the winding up owned up and they too were excluded for a fixed term. There was no repetition of such an incident as I think it shocked the class as to what can happen if they are not kind to people. I do think, however, that if the physical aspect is regularly happening and cannot be controlled then the school is not the right environment for that child BUT the LEA might well be insisting that it is. It is also very very difficult to permanently exlude a child with a statement.

[DarthVader]

Hi batters, sounds like your dd got excluded from after school club instead in effect?

The head says what you mention flyingmum, that the LEA have no suitable other provision.

I have written to the chair of governors and he said he is going to discuss with the LEA. Hopefully this will be a push for someone to deal with the situation properly, hard though it is for all parties concerned.

I think that if there had been better management and support for this child since reception we would not be where we are now. From observing his mother in the playground and the teachers in class, there seems to have been very little in the way of consequences ever used as discipline for his aggressive behaviour, purely because he has special needs, and yet he is not particularly slow to learn in other ways.

[DarthVader]

batters I feel the same as you, that all of the children are suffering because of how this is dealt with

[crimplene]

DarthVader, there is always an alternative provision available (even if that's 2- 2-1 support), even if the LEA don't want to pay for it. They are afraid of one thing more than just spending money though, and that is being taken to court and having to pay out compensation.

It could be worth writing to the school/ LEA and pointing out the situation, reminding them that they're responsible for your child's safety and explaining that if your child, or any other child, is injured, you won't hesitate to take them to the cleaners.

[Whizzz]

Agree the school must provide a safe environment for all children (& staff). Surely things must be being done by the school - eg. finding out what is triggering the violent behaviour in the child, training staff to cope & as a last resort, restrain the child if he gets out of control etc. If the child is adequately supervised 1-1, where/how are the attacks happening?

I would talk to the school about the concerns for your child by all means, BUT also request to be given details of the agreed management of the pupil.

[Peachy]

darthvader I ttally agree the school ahs to be a safe area for all kids and if that child truly cannot cope, as an also innocent party he should be in an environment where he can- becuase an ASD kid who behaves like this (I speak as Mum of 2 ASD kids, one who does have aggression issues) is clealry not happy.

Please dont think that ebcause you observe Mum for 5 minutes a day in the playgrund however, tehre are no consequences. behavioural strategies for ASD kids exist but can be difficult to use in such an environment- safe restraint etc not being so feasible.

[aquariusmum]

There is a boy who is NF in my NF daughter's class who is also aggressive, regularly hitting, pushing and bullying other kids. Yet nothing much ever seems to happen, and the mum concerned doesn't seem bothered either. I don't think this is just an ASD issue, but it just seems to get more airtime when it's related to SEN. Is it tapping into the feeling of mums that in fact they don't want our kids in their classes? If so, that is real shame as it is good for kids to grow up knowing that human beings come in all different shapes and sizes. It is also a legal matter - it is UK government policy and a legal right of SEN kids to be included in mainstream where-ever possible. That said, it sounds like the 1-to-1 and the teacher need to be a lot firmer. I would be livid if my ASD son's 1-to-1 allowed him to hit a child EVEN ONCE!!

[Peachy]

I know what you mean aquariusmum- and i think people jump readi;y ime on the problems of inclusion for the calssmates without looking at the porblems of inclusion for the kids- bullying is a noted one.

there's also this notion that all aprents of ASD kids want their child included; often that simply isn't the case, standard practice seems to be in manY LEA's for the child to have to fail first in MS before a SN placement is considered; ds3 will be on 6 week review of his place throughout primary- I wanted SN, but there simply wasn't anywhere for him. So he ahs got a rolling trial palce at MS. As it happens ds3 is the least likely child to bea ggressive as he won't necessarily interact toaht level, but there must be lots of otehr kids in his situation.

[aquariusmum]

It is ironic isn't it Peachy that whichever way round we want it (whether we want first choice SEN or mainstream) we end up in a fight to get what is right for our chilid. I feel like I had to fight tooth and nail to get my DS into ms, and now I'm fighting to keep him there, yet there are you wanting SEN whereas in my borough you would be better off as they are always trying to push ASD kids into SEN schools. It is so hard sometimes, I have been getting very cynical. Oh well, at least it's Friday and time for a drink and a fag.

[yurt1]

I can believe there is no suitable provision. A friend's child had 2 to 1 for a while because there was no room for her in the one suitable school. 2 to 1 is not inclusion it is exclusion and a joke.

We were told that severely autistic non verbal ds1 had to attend a ms school (he lasted 4 term and is now much happier in SLD/PMLD- he never once attacked another child though).

It's hard to judge whether discipline is being applied when the child has special needs. We have two VERY strong discipline measures at the moment - both used in extreme cicumstances. one is to say 'I'll get a duvet' the other is to say 'do you want a yoghurt'. These are actually the 2 most effective strategies we have, and the 2 most likely to result in compliance (the other is to offer an apple for some desired, rather than undesired behaviour). We rarely use 'no' because it will lead to an immediate repeat of the undesired behaviour. Who watching us would even realise we were disciplining our child?

I'm surprised the school are keeping the child in the classroom if his behaviour is so extreme and he has a 1:1 (usually they end up taught in the nearest cupboard). Does he have full time 1:1?

The most effective thing you can do? Write to your MP and councillors complaining about SN provision and saying it is affecting your child's education. Politicians don't give a shit about SN provision (we're not a bit enough voting group) but they do care about 'normal' education and standards. If enough conventional families complain then there is a possibility that provision will start to be properly funded.

[Misdee]

oh yurt1 i have figured you who you are

[Peachy]

Misdee beinga bit slow there PMSL!

It is worth asking as Yurt says- is the 1-1 full time? It is a non existent thing in the LEA now- apaprently it amkes a child dependent - if you have a child likely tor emain with you for the rest of his life, independence at age 4 is not a huge concern imo. Safety and consistency (ie ability to remian in one school) is

[pagwatch]

Yes , please don't ever assume that a mum or a carer are doing nothing. With my Ds the absoloutely best method of calming him is to STOP TALKING TO HIM! And saying no is like lighting the blue touch paper.

And DarthVader areas of learning and understanding in ASD children is highly complex. My DS can navigate a computer better than his elder very computer literate brother and could read most of the Sunday Times but he does not understand what "yesterday" means , not can he answer the question "what do you want". If he is angry and upset he often needs to get inside a sleeping bag to calm down. What you see is not always what you think it is.

My DS is not violent although was initially and also had a period of self harming. He is in a school for kids with ASD and he is very happy there. I would not let him go to mainstream because I believe it would make him so anxious that he may become violent again if pushed.
So all these children are different but the reality is that the LEA try cheapest provision if they can get away with it. Every child that can cope in mainstream should be given the professional support they neeed to make it work for all

[pagwatch]

Yes and I have just figured out who yurt is too. So am officailly pretty dense but nonetheless very happy