sleep refuser - the little tinker

[booboobunny]

can anyone advise what is going on in my mad little angel's head....
having had a lovely day, where she was the world's best baby, taking naps without any fuss or bother, and playing in between she then battled and battled to stay awake when it came to proper bedtime? we eventually put her in the car for a drive a 11.30 (she'd been awake since 3pm) which knocked her out, though she still woke several times in the night. this morning she's knackered, awake at 7.30 but now napping, without any fuss at all. it's so frustrating as she'd been making great progress with her sleep after we consulted our hv for advice (previosuly she was waking 10+ times a night). i was amazed at how quickly she picked it up and how little crying was involved. it lasted about a week and a half and since then she's been resisting bedtime with a passion. i just don't get what's going on. cna anyone offer any insight? she's just over 5 months old btw.....

[usandourlittlexmascracker]

My little boy is 4.5 months old and we also used strategies our HV gave us to sort out his terrible sleep problem. This worked brilliantly for a couple of weeks, then we had a bad week or so and it has now settled down again.

I would stick with it. I think its quite common for babies to struggle with sleep at this age.

My DS naps 3-4 times a day now, waking at about 4pm from the last one.
Our evenings can be a bit grumpy because we just can't get him to nap after 4 no matter how tired he is. He is now in the habit of going to bed between 7 and half 8 after a long dozy breastfeed and lots of very calm and soothing chats and cuddles on the sofa.

[booboobunny]

thanks, i really hope you're right. she's downstairs at the moment gnawing on an ice cube tray having hollered for over an hour after waking up from her bedtime sleep. hv says there's no problem with treating her 6.30-7.15ish sleep as a nap and putting her down later, when she's ready to go to sleep, but i just don't understand why it was all working so well last week, but is just totally wrong this week??? and of course, she wasn't ready to go to sleep at all last night! she's a complex little thing and no mistaking! i have a horrid feeling we'll be in the car again tonight.....

[usandourlittlexmascracker]

How was your night? My HV warned me that it may work well for a few days then we may well take a few steps back so I was ready for it!

How is your dd fed? Breast or bottle? We had a problem getting my ds down for the night for a while because he was overtired but wouldn't nap after 3/4pm. I'm breast feeding and so used that to get him to have a little nap before puting him down for the night. I also find that putting him down for a sleep straight after a feed doesn't work it is better to keep him up sat with me for half an hour first. Keeping everything very calm and soothing during this time.

Having said all that my DS still wakes often in the night for food but at least he feeds and then goes straight back down with no fuss at all.

Another suggestion my HV made was because my DS was more interested in the world around him he was taking less at daytime feeds and tanking up at night. Could this be the case?

All this may be a load of rubbish and your LO could have started the dreaded teething stage. AAARRRGGGGHHHHHHH!

[booboobunny]

well she was up till 10.30, fed her and she went to sleep but woke up about 6/7 times. i think you are right about using night times to feed properly. she's really easily distracted durin the day and probably only feed for a max of 10 mins at any one time and even then it's pretty half-hearted.
i may give waiting to put her down after feeding a try, as she's just great going down without feeding during the day, but seems to think it's not the way to go after 7pm!
the most frustrating thing is that she was up at 7.45, i can be sure she'll be ready for aa nap at around 9.30ish, she'll go down like a dream and i'll probably have to wake her up after an hour and a half to 2 hours!!!! why not at night!!!! aaaaaargh
not sure about teething. it seems to be a catch all, but i can't see any real evidence of her having started it......

[booboobunny]

ooo she is breast fed, though i'd love to get her onto bottle she's pretty resistant. but that's another fight for another day.......

[utterlyconfused]

Maybe you are trying to put her down too late and she is overtired? This would stop her from gong to sleep and indeed from sleeping properly once she has.

[hermykne]

booboo keep up the breastfeeding but listen she is compensating for her night sleep at 9.30am and letting her have 2 hrs then is just fine and dandy by her but not you. both of mine were breastfeed and slept well for me.
so at the 9am nap only let her have 1/2hr, i know this sounds bad, lift her and then wait to see when she next needs a nap ,, proably around 1pm and let her have 1 and 1/2hrs then in the middle of the day, then by about 7.30 she start getting tired, have a bath with her, keep it calm, no tv on or music bar calming stuff(if shes up til 10.30pm is she hearing tv noise?)

feed her and settle to bed. then if she still needs a night feed lift her round 11/12 midnight abd see how it goes. or she may wake for a feed herself .

dont let her nap after 3pm, they will not settle for a good restful sleep if the get fortywinks round 5pm, so battle it out and percivere, the feeding shouldnt be a problem or disrupt the sleep. my ds slept 7.30pm to 7 or 8am from 8mths and i feed him til 13mths. so it can be done.

hth

[usandourlittlexmascracker]

We have the bottle fight too!! I have given up for now it was getting too stressful.

Maybe try feeding her in the dark during the day to get her to take as much milk as poss? Or you could think about weaning? I don't know how you feel about that, it can be a touchy subject.

I definitely think try putting her down a while after a feed. Maybe she is associating you with sleeping and waking up and needing you to get back off again?

I always remind myself it won't last, it's just a phase.... and repeat this to myself often

[utterlyconfused]

I would say she should be down by about 6pm.

[booboobunny]

to be honest i'd be inclined to agree that she s compensating for a lack of sleep during the night with long naps during the day, but i mentioned this to my hv yesterday and she said i should let her take the sleep she needs as a calm, relaxed baby is more likely to sleep during the night too. it seems to make sense, but my instinct is that she's only taking so much sleep cos she's knackered from all her night shenanigans!! she's down now and the idea of getting her up in 5 minutes is v unappealing though i must say. she'll be sooooo grumpy!!!

i do try and put her down at 6.30 after her bath, but she treats this as a nap and will not go back to sleep. last night we had over an our of desperate crying by which time she had totally woken herself up and was ready to play. brought her downstairs, where she played happily from c8.30 to 10.30, when i took her upstairs to bed (after a feed). this was better than the night before, so i guess we both felt like winners!!!

i have tried feeding her in the dark during the day but she's so alert she still looks around all over the place. the main reason for getting the hv on board waas because i was knackered from the constant night feeding. her plan was to teach her to get herself off to sleep by herself during the day, which would have a knock on effect to the night. so when she woke at night she'd be able to resettle herself without sucking. she is defo able to get to sleep without sucking as she does it all be herself during the day, but it's a different story at night. it was starting to have an impact, but has all gone bonkers this week.

[hermykne]

booboo you'll have to lift, and dont let her have those long day naps. she'll be grumpy of course and its contradictory to your hv you says a calm baby in the day is a calm baby at night, which i dont believe. a babys mood changes throughout the day. she doesnt need to sleep all day , she needs to sleep at ngiht. so reduce the day naps. you will be amazes at how content she will then be in the day and alert when normal not at 8.30pm. you need to think about yourself and if you are on duty from 7am you cant still be on duty at 9pm. getting her into a 2hr day nap habit will see her going to bed at 7pm and then you'll have a few hours to yourself or with your dh. a week of a grumpy baby is all it may take go on prepare yourself to do battle!

[hermykne]

day nap in the day not morning or late afternoon i have to reiterate that, sorry!

why do oyu settle her at 6.30pm? why not drag it out til 8pm?

[booboobunny]

okay, you obviously have some experience of this, so can you give me some pointers as to how i should structure her day? i have several books and they all say differnet things. te no-cry solution says you need to get your baby to take as much sleep as poss during the day (per the hv) while others say say just 40-50 mins etc. i just don't know what will work to help my tiddler sleep during the night for extended periods. any advice will be greatly appreciated.

i put er down at 6.30 cos all books say this is about the right time. plus she is impossibly grumpy by this time so it seemed to me that this was what she considered her bedtime (wrong there obv).

[hermykne]

booboo not necessarily wrong but i have seen here that alot of people who put their babies down at that time wake at 5.30 to 6am.
in the long run you want to get your baby to sleep for a good 11 hours at nigt. to me under the age of 1 waking between 7 and 7.30 is kinda ok for mum! so 11 hrs back is 7.30 settling asleep by 8pm.

my two usually woke around 7, at the age your dd is, my dd and ds had a nap round 9.30 for 1/2hr maybe 40mins, and usually fell into this one very easily. then their was next feed / lunch and generally noise and clatter til i could see the next sleep coming on anytime from 12.30 to 1.30. so an hour and half then, up feed, playtime, dinner , around 5/5.30, bath bedtime stories/music and general wind down for last feed 7/7.30 and settling into cot.
ds woke in the night until 8 1/2mths for another feed usually round 12. i didnt mind that, as i'd usually be in bed by 11 and dozing, feed him quickly resettle and all asleep til 7 or so.

we had a kink when he did a wee stint of 4am wakening, he got short shirft and coped on to sleep later in the morns!!!

it is hard work getting the day to work so baby is happy and you are happy. but you'll be amazed how they can settle into that pattern of early bedtime sleeping right thru til morn. and how that time for you to think straight is most important in the evening, you ll have 2 hrs to read a mag, phone someone, talk to your dh about other things, maybe sneak out and a babysitter will have no qualms minding your baby or you them. it sets up a good practise for the long term.


i just think whatever about 1 child when no 2 comes along you need no 1 in bed to really get your sanity back.

but my dd now 4, goes to bed at 7.30 up at 8 and sleeps well. to me children need good sleep to be content thru the day. dd has always gone to bed and been happy to as she knows its the end of the day and bed is cosy. i know that age is far away for you and your babe.

and even if your dd doesnt sllep for 2 hrs in the middle of the day and wakes after an hour say, and then at 4 pm you see her nodding off , then just let her have 15mins then, and push bedtime up to 8 for settling and see that works, times dont actually matter its more the length of time they sleep.
this may take her a week or 2 to settle into you so dont expect too much or give up.

me and my dh sit on our sofa most nights (when he is home) at 8.15/20 with the 2 munchins in bed and we can chat and the funny thing is those 2/3 hrs for us are actually quite long, compared to the whirlwind of the day.
hth, i just thinks mummy hood is so much more enjoyabele if oyu know you'll get 4 out 7 good nights sleep and evenings to oyurself in a week.
its a balance that can be achieved.

hope i am not too bossy sounding its just i'd love to think of you having time to think and sleep and waking feeling refreshed, as i do all new mums.

[hermykne]

booboo i do empathise more where a mum is breastfeeding too, as so many give up because they are tired and you can keep it up, even just a morning and even feed. the myth that breastfeed babies dont sleep like bottle feed ones does my head IN big time. as my ds proved the opposite to his bottle feed cousin a regular nighttime waker to this day and both are 2(4mths between them).

[booboobunny]

hi, thanks for that. i'll try and adapt our routine to be more like this in the hope it will have some effect. i did only let her have a very short lunchtime nap and then stopped her dropping off again until bedtime. really tried to hold out till 7.30 but by 6.20 she was sooooo grizzly that i gave in. hence she's up now.....i'll try again properly tomorrow as her long nap was at the worng time today, which may have affected the outcome. fingers crossed...