CC with toddler, turning into a collossal battle!!!

[pen73]

Previously great sleeper, my 15mo DD got seriously messed up by our recent trip to Australia for 4 weeks. Ended up co-sleeping at some point most nights to avoid waking our hosts, or fellow hotel guests and we moved around a lot.

Once back here, we had 6 nights of obvious waking thru jet lag and once that subsided I decided to tackle the co-sleeping as I never sleep well and I just want her back in her cot like before. Started on Monday night with Controlled Crying and would really appreciate some tips please!

1st night, only took one comforting, lying back down, going out the door, Knew it was too good to be true.

2nd night woke 2x, and both times again only took 1 or 2 trips in and out.

3rd night woke at 3am, took 4 goes

last night again woke a 3am, I went in and out for 2 hours eventually gave in at 5am and held her, sitting on a chair next to the cot until she was deeply asleep and I put her back in bed.

Last night it was as if she had decided to not give in. Each visit from me seemed to rev her back up again and at times she was hysterical. I never left her for more than 12 mins and this is something I'd like clarification on.

Q1: If you add 2 mins to each time you wait outside, where do you stop as you soon start approaching 16 mins, 18 mins, 20+ mins and I don't know how constructive this is.

Q2: I am picking her up each time as just going in makes no difference and she gets more angry if anything. She squirms about for a bit pointing out the bedroom door and then puts her head on my shoulder and I transfer her to cot, telling her I'm putting her back to bed, it's sleepy time etc, etc. She is yelling by the time she hits the mattress and is standing up screaming before I get to the door. Should I just not pick her up??

She's just woken now (8.50am) and I can hear how hoarse she sounds so I'd better go but might jump back on later if I get any responses. I just really hope we all get a nap this afternoon as I've got that dizzy, sick feeling from sleep deprivation.

[2quokkasandaparetree]

I usually wait 10min and if dc are still crying badly then will pat them on the back and turn on lullaby light. If this doesn't work then will pick them up, cuddle and settle them down, then back in the cot again. I usually go by the sound of their cry though.

Ds1 has been getting night time terrors recently and I started using a sleep blend from an aromotherapist, and he hasn't woken up since! Use the same thing for ds2 when he's teething and it works for him as well. It's like a magic potion .

When we have been to OZ it usually takes a couple of weeks to get back to a normal routine. How much sleep is she getting during the day? That will have an impact for her night sleep, I would say no more than 2hrs.

[pen73]

Thanks 2quokkas..her day routine is still all over the place although she isn't having more than 2 hrs, but yesterday I was working and she was v. stroppy for Dad and he did 1 hr of CC with her over afternoon nap, gave in and sat on sofa with her watching telly until she dozed off at 4pm. So it's probably safe to say that she's still a bit mixed up.

Am I mad to be doing the CC in that case? I don't really know what the alternative is though. And my neighbours must be hating us!! Poor woman in flat upstairs has her bedroom directly above DD as I know from the noises that we used to hear from her before it became DD nursery that you can hear everything!!

I like the aromatherapy idea. Could use some myself and then perhaps I might even sleep through all the crying!!

[2quokkasandaparetree]

try not to get her to sleep after 5pm, if she is wake her no matter how tempted you are to leave her. Don't worry about the neighbours, it wont go on forever. Have you tried a dummy?

[zippitippitoes]

I would get her up earlier in the morning even though she hasn't slept well, say 7.00am and give her a nap around early lunch time. I would do a quick a lay back down and a few pats on the back when you go in and see her. Leave the room and go back 10 minutes later each time.

[pen73]

The laying back down turns into wrestling and at 4am I get really fearful that I'm going to hurt her. She hates beling laid back down and really resists. It's grim!

[2quokkasandaparetree]

pen has she got a pillow? Ds1 fell in love with his at that age?

[sunnysideup]

I agree with Zippi, get her up at 7ish and go for a middle of the day nap and try to not let her sleep later than 3pm....this should help get her back into more of a routine....

with us the magic wand for night wakings was DH...I handed the nights completely over to him and it worked SO well; I think ds sensed that he wasn't going to get indulged by dad, and didn't get such a sense of comfort from his presence perhaps, so it wasn't worth waking really! DH was prepared to give it a good few nights but in fact ds was sleeping through within a very few days and we all felt better for it...and yes, DH had to get up for work but he coped.

With the laying back down, I know what you mean as DS absolutely hated being made to lay down...I think place her in the cot but don't force her to lay down; she is safe in the cot and she will sit/lay when she is ready to....this is a battle you don't need to fight and the laying down is obviously so angering her that it is only serving to make her more awake!

[pen73]

Thanks all for the positive messages, I appreciate the support! Took her out for long walk in stroller for some good lungfuls of air and having had lunch she's just gone off for an afternoon nap. Perhaps a little later than ideal but she went down with minimum fuss. I think I'll wake her at 3pm if she isn't awake already.

I might try the pillow idea as she loves falling back into ours on our bed. She does have a strong attachment to her 'silky' a square of satin (or actually 1 of 6!) and it does work brilliantly as a comforter, especially whilst travelling but with the downside of her throwing it out of the cot and howling as she did last night. I said to DH, 'It might be time to kick that habit too..." but I'm reluctant to. I think once she's sleeping properly again it won't be a prob.

Argh, spoke too soon, she's still not asleep 15 mins in the cot now, howling once every 20 sec or so. Gonna be a long afternoon.

[pen73]

BTW 2quokkas, did you ever get the Oz mums together, I saw an old post from you on this? I'm from Sydney but here 10yrs now, also Brit husband. But I'm in E. London so not at all close by to you. But it's nice to know there are other Aussie mums on Mumsnet.

[2quokkasandapeartree]

pen we have met up a couple of times, and theres about 3 aussie mums in east London, so you can join us if you want the thread is here

How was dd last night?

[pen73]

Thanks for the link, I'll jump in at some point. I don't want to tempt fate but last night was almost perfect. Strange thing was that I managed to wake her up at midnight on my way to bed (had a few glasses of red over dinner with a friend) and it was almost like it got the waking out of the way. I gave her a drink of water and she went back to sleep. Woke at 6am. Still it could also be that she was so tired from the previous nights histrionics! Today she's only had 45 mins nap after lunch so I'm hopeful tonight will be OK. Gotta be optimistic.

[2quokkasandapeartree]

absolutely, I've got my fingers and legs crossed for you!

[pen73]

Another shocking night. It seems DD has one good night (where she catches up on the sleep) and a terrible one. Last night she woke at 12.00am and we did CC for 3 hrs. by 3am she was really hysterical, even though I never leave her more than 10 mins. SHe just gets so determined not to go to sleep. I spent the next 45 mins getting her to sleep on the couch. Terrible I know but I was desperate by then. 3.45am I popped her asleep into her cot and went to bed myself. And she woke as normal at 7am. I don't know how she does it! She's really croaky from the crying and screaming though and I'm feeling really traumatised this morning. I know people who do this for months on end and I can't face a week or so of it.

[pen73]

It seems that if she goes back down within 30 mins of first waking, the CC works. But longer makes her lose the plot. I think she could keep it up indefinately. Im worried it's going to give her bad associations with her cot where she was previously so happy.

[2quokkasandapeartree]

has it been 2 weeks since you came back yet? Thats how long I reckon the jet lag takes to get over? Try some armotherapy, dh has been shocked by how well it works. I use a sleep blend my friend did but you could get any aromotherapist to do it. Should cost about a fiver for a small bottle

[pen73]

Do you use the sleep blend in a burner or rub it on? I don't have much aromatherapy experience....Just put her down for nap, not much of a fight she's so tired. 2 fullblown tantrums though when I refused to hold her earlier. Had to go to the loo!! She is just such a cling-on.

You are right though, we've only been back 12 days. Although it feels like 2 months..... All that sunshine is now a distant memory. My screensaver is DD's bare bum on the beach.

I'm going to track down my local aromatherapist now. Thanks for the replies BTW, I'm going a bit mad and jumping on MN does help. I hope you get some good support from it too when you need it.

[2quokkasandapeartree]

You can put it in the bath or rub it on their bellies in a clockwise motion (helps them to digest food). Mine love their bellies being rubbed, so I do it that way.

[2quokkasandapeartree]

You can put it in the bath or rub it on their bellies in a clockwise motion (helps them to digest food). Mine love their bellies being rubbed, so I do it that way.

[CantSleepWontSleep]

Haven't read all of the thread, so apologies if this has already been answered, but you are not following CC the way it was designed, as you are not leaving her for long enough. If you go in as frequently as you have been doing, she will most likely continue crying, as she knows that it won't be long before you are back again. The timings should be...

1st night - leave 5 mins first time, 10 mins second time, 15 mins third time, 20 mins fourth time etc

2nd night - leave 10 mins first time, 15 mins second time, 20 mins third time etc

3rd night - leave 15 mins first time, 20 mins second time, 25 mins third time etc

And so on. Would suggest you stop cc altogether for a few days, and then start it again following the prescribed method.

Also, you mentioned lying her back down again. Are you picking up and cuddling too? Full on CC means you shouldn't pick up at all, and shouldn't lie her back down - she can do this for herself, otherwise there is opportunity for power struggle between you about which position she is in.

[pen73]

CSWS, you sound like the true voice of experience! Yes, I'm aware we are doing it badly which is also doing my head in! Because we have been picking DD up, there seems to be no point in going in if I don't as NO settling takes place otherwise. If I go in and don't pick her up, she ups the crying to outright screaming straight away. So I feel really stuck as I don't see the point when it feels like no comfort and just provocation. However I do see that what we are doing IS NOT WORKING!!! On the worst nights when it goes on for 3+ hrs I give in and let her fall asleep in my arms or on the sofa as I reach my limit and she is just so hysterical I feel she needs to switch off. So night after night I make it worse. Which is making the tears well up as I type. I'm just shattered today.

To save you reading the thread are also dealing with post-Australia jetlag. We've been back 12 nights now and 2quokkas points out it takes 2 weeks. Fortunately she is taking a break from CC herself by alternating between good and bad nights.

[CantSleepWontSleep]

Well I haven't done it with a toddler, but did do it with my DD when she was around 8 months. Should prob have changed my name to CanSleepWillSleep at that point, but we still have teething to get through .

Have you read Ferber's book (Solve your child's sleep problems)? I'd recommend it if not. The going in isn't meant to calm them (though no harm if it does of course) - it's just reassurance that you haven't abandoned them, and of course reassurance for you that they are physically ok.

Are you sure she isn't teething btw, as the only really bad nights we've had since doing CC have been down to that?

[pen73]

BTW when you write etc in realtion to the timings, just how long would you leave DC as the night wore on? 35, 40 mins?? My problem is that all the literature I read seems to assume bub will give up and go to sleep after a 20 min gap and mine just doesn't! Was reading Dr Christopher Green and he just advocates using sedation if CC hasn't worked in 30mins. You can't do that night after night IMO!! Although I'm getting to valium point myself!!

[CantSleepWontSleep]

Blimey - sedation sounds a bit strong! Well much to my surprise, I think the longest I ever had to leave dd at one go was 30 mins, and that was prob once in the first couple of nights. It really didn't take long at all for it to work - after 3 days she was able to settle herself back to sleep (not all the time initially), which she had not done before, and she went from being a baby who had only slept through on 6 random occasions, to a baby who sleeps through (or nearly sleeps through) far more often than not.

I'm not sure how long I would have been prepared to leave her. Theoretically now I should be leaving her quite a long while before going in, but as it's so rare that she needs a revisit now, I tend to just leave 15 mins.

I'm pretty sure I read that a couple of hours or more (in total) isn't uncommon for the first night, but that it will reduce after that. I seem to recall (as I talked a lot about it at the time) that the first night for us took 1 hour 37 mins, and the second about 50, and then thirtysomething the third, and so on.

[pen73]

Was a horrible night but today it feels like a breakthrough and I'm more positive. I had hoped that after a really bad night previously where we were up between 12 - 4am she'd have a good night and sleep but no. I went to bed at 8.30 in the hope of getting a few hours in. She woke at 10.00 pm as DH was coming to bed. She must have sensed it! What followed was 1H 40 (so 3 mins more than you!) of outright screaming, right from the start! I did leave her for longer periods of time, the last one prob being 25 mins and only picked her up once at the beginning and once at the end when she had nearly gone off then whipped herself up into hysteria. After that I lay her down twice and she settled. Or gave in. I found that between visits from me she would taper right off, but never quite gave in. So I did feel I had to go back in, even though that meant eachtime she was more upset again. You really need to use your instincts, but also ignore the biggest one which is urging you to pick them up and run back to bed with them for big cuddles.

I was weeping hoplessly after about an hour of it but DH and I agreed that there was absolutley no other option as the only thing that would quieten her was to hold her till sleep. And I'm not doing that night after night.

So she's had a good day and normal nap at lunchtime. I hope tonight might be an improvement but we'll see. Thanks for the tips, I would have kept bumbling along, torturing all of us with half-cocked CC, doing no-one any favours.

[pen73]

Was a horrible night but today it feels like a breakthrough and I'm more positive. I had hoped that after a really bad night previously where we were up between 12 - 4am she'd have a good night and sleep but no. I went to bed at 8.30 in the hope of getting a few hours in. She woke at 10.00 pm as DH was coming to bed. She must have sensed it! What followed was 1H 40 (so 3 mins more than you!) of outright screaming, right from the start! I did leave her for longer periods of time, the last one prob being 25 mins and only picked her up once at the beginning and once at the end when she had nearly gone off then whipped herself up into hysteria. After that I lay her down twice and she settled. Or gave in. I found that between visits from me she would taper right off, but never quite gave in. So I did feel I had to go back in, even though that meant eachtime she was more upset again. You really need to use your instincts, but also ignore the biggest one which is urging you to pick them up and run back to bed with them for big cuddles.

I was weeping hoplessly after about an hour of it but DH and I agreed that there was absolutley no other option as the only thing that would quieten her was to hold her till sleep. And I'm not doing that night after night.

So she's had a good day and normal nap at lunchtime. I hope tonight might be an improvement but we'll see. Thanks for the tips, I would have kept bumbling along, torturing all of us with half-cocked CC, doing no-one any favours.