15 week old sleep problems - getting desperate

[bigbadwritersblock]

Hello

Please help - my ff (was expressing until last week) 15 w/o dd has from 10 weeks been awake at least every 2 hrs in the night. Now its the school holidays I'm so tired I can't think of doing much with my 4 y/o DS. I'm also spending lots of time (such as now) rocking her to sleep in her pram. (DS sitting beside me as i do this as he is fed up) She wakes at 5 every day and I rock/feed/soothe her until 5.40/5.50. Last night she went to sleep at 6.30 and woke 10.39,12.30,1.30,3.30,4.50.

I'm becomming v depressed with it all. Suffered PND with DS and had been so pleased not to have if this time but feel it creeping up on me.

Looking for advice on positive changes rather then anyone saying go with it - not everyone can and not everyone has a dc that sleeps like this - its agony. We co sleep and I feel that's the problem as from 2 she won't sleep unless she's touching me.

Thanks

[Emmylooagain]

Hi, sleep issues are shit aren't they? I feel like a bit of an expert as I saw a sleep consultant three times with my son. He is now almost 4. To me, it sounds like she is using you or the rocking as a sleep aid. So she goes to sleep with the rocking or touching you and then she can't put herself back to sleep without that aid. There is a lot of science to babies' sleep and once I understood it, I found it helped. They need to be able to go to sleep as they will find themselves when they wake up at night, so that they will look around and know how to put themselves back to sleep. If she is going to sleep being rocked or held, when she wakes up and she isn't being rocked or held, she won't know how to put herself back to sleep. I imagine the co-sleeping is contributing to the problem.

Of course, feel free to ignore me. This was just the advice I received from the sleep consultant I used and I implemented her advice with my DD (who is now 14 months) and she is a great sleeper. Of course, it could all be random but I don't think so....

Hope that helps!

[bigbadwritersblock]

I think I know that's the problem and don't want to admit if (as know some people that co sleep and have great sleepers) am reluctant as I love my night time cuddles but can't have many more days when I feel on my knees like today! So what should I do? I can't remember teaching my d/s to self soothe and now its the holidays I don't think ill have much time to?

Thanks for the advice

[bigbadwritersblock]

Could you give me details of your sleep constant

[caeleth84]

To be honest, there's nothing wrong with them needing help getting to sleep at that age. They're still tiny! Sleep training isn't recommended until they're a year.. It is shit though with the lack of sleep.

15 weeks is prime sleep regression time as well, so it really is very normal. There's a big regression that hits pretty much all babies around 3-4 months. It does pass though! I found the easiest way was cosleeping and bf to sleep - that gave me the least amount of wakeful time for each wake up and meant I didn't have to get out of bed or anything.

Also, can you get DH/DP/anyone else to get up and give you a bit of a lie in in the mornings? I found that helped a lot, even if it was just an extra 45-60 mins. Or can you go to bed earlier?

I think it settled down a bit for us around the 5-6 month mark.

Here are some articles on normal sleep (not much help I realize, but maybe a bit of reassurance that it's normal):
kellymom.com/parenting/nighttime/sleepstudies/
www.psychologytoday.com/blog/moral-landscapes/201302/normal-human-infant-sleep-feeding-method-and-development

[mrsmugoo]

At 15 weeks my DS was co-sleeping and waking through the night just as you describe. We hit 4 month regression from 14-17 weeks and in those 3 weeks I didn't sleep for longer than an hour at a time. I was starting to lose the plot and something really had to give.

I know it is controversial and it might not be the solution you were looking for but I decided to sleep train to get him in his cot. I tried various methods but in the end cc ended up causing him the least stress. Within 3 nights he was going down like a dream in his cot and self soothing throughout the night whenever he briefly woke between sleep cycles.

He wriggles and kicks around quite a bit while he gets comfy and sucks his fingers to send him back off to sleep. He didn't have the space in our bed to do this so whenever he woke he would not be able to go back to sleep by himself and I would have to help him (by feeding).

He's 20 weeks now and is now sleeping from 10:30 - 5am and I feel sane again.

[bigbadwritersblock]

I'm happy to cuddle/rock dd to sleep but its the constant waking that's the problem. I think its a solveable one without cc but I need a plan! My DH has a 4 hr commute to/from work each day and has to leave around 6.30. My mum works and there isn't anyone else (unfortunately)

[bigbadwritersblock]

Thanks mrs mugoo - did your dc cry for long? I wouldn't be adverse to trying sleep training - I know that shh pat or pu/pd would not work with her - she's an incredibly alert baby and not chilled out at all (though incredibly happy)

I'm so tired I've broken plates and really shouted at DS today and he's starting school in sept so I really want to enjoy our last few weeks ;-(

[loveisagirlnameddaisy]

Any sort of sleep training is not recommended until 6 months and I waited until a year, but I appreciate I had help from DP and without that, I would probably have felt totally desperate, so I really do sympathise with you. Can DP not do the weekends so you get two good nights sleep? I'd try and get through a few more weeks before doing CC, she really is so tiny to be doing it now.

Also, you say that ssh/pat or pupd wouldn't work but is it worth trying? If you're considering CC anyway, you're still going to have to put up with the crying, but at least you'll be in the room with her.

[Devilforasideboard]

I did shush-pat with DS at 12 weeks and it worked a treat. Didn't stop him waking when hungry but did mean he gradually learnt to self-soothe.

[mrsmugoo]

No, it was never longer than 30 minutes and I never left the room. It was never really a full blown distressed cry, but more of an "I'm tired and I really want to go to sleep"

For me it was the best parenting decision I've made to date. We are all getting better sleep. Happy Mummy, happy baby.

[bigbadwritersblock]

You're right - I will try shh pat and pu/pd - tonight she is in her own cot in our room and I'm hoping it stays that way (although did have a few tears about it earlier) rubbish as I would love to continue co sleeping bit I can't cope with the constant waking :-(

[bigbadwritersblock]

Do shh pat pu/pd not count as sleep training?

[Devilforasideboard]

It probably does but DS cried whether he was being held or in his cot or whatever when he was tired so I figured it really didn't matter.

[TheresLotsOfFarmyardAnimals]

Shh-pat is really perfect for 10 weeks. Nice and gradual. Build up to it with going into the sleeping area, curtains closed and a nice cuddle. I'd say within 2 weeks DS was self soothing and only waking up for food. DF at 10pm then once in the night is manageable. Every 45 minutes, not so much!

I do agree that some babies sleep so atrociously that sometimes they just need to learn. Coping on a few hours of broken sleep in a 24 hour period is not enough. Everyone, including them is happier.

[caeleth84]

I'd really be very careful about trying sleep training this early. Or at least do some reading on it so you're making an informed decision.

If you're desperate I'd advocate the "No cry sleep solution" as being the most gentle.

Here's an article about self soothing and brain development:
sarahockwell-smith.com/2014/06/30/self-settling-what-really-happens-when-you-teach-a-baby-to-self-soothe-to-sleep/
If you'd like to know more about it, the book "Why love matters" looks at current brain research more detailed.

Here are some highlights of studies on the effect of excessive crying:www.askdrsears.com/topics/health-concerns/fussy-baby/science-says-excessive-crying-could-be-harmful

A study on the cortisol levels of babies learning to self soothe: www.earlyhumandevelopment.com/article/S0378-3782(11)00270-2/abstract. High cortisol levels over time can have severely detrimental effects on brain development.

[mrsmugoo]

Also read this series, in the interest of a balanced argument

scienceofmom.com/2012/02/13/why-sleep-matters-to-babies-and-parents/

[mrsmugoo]

I've just watched my 20 week old cuddle a muslin, suck his fingers and fall asleep peacefully on his playmat.

If I hadn't "sleep trained" I'd never have given him the chance to do this. It's true self soothing can't be taught - but you do need to give your baby the opportunity to find out if they can do it. He can, and does it all by himself whenever he wants to.

As a result we never get tears or grumpiness when he's tired, he sucks his fingers and his eyelids droop. If he's in a place he can sleep he will. If we're at home I pop him in his cot when I can see him start to get tired.

It's sooooooo much less stressful for us both than tears of tired frustration from him and hours of pacing and rocking a 15lb baby.

[caeleth84]

That's a nice article Mrs, it has some interesting links that I'm going to check out :)

I would like to note that it doesn't actually at any point address the negative effects of sleep training though.. Just the importance of sleep (which I'm certainly not questioning!). Waking through the night doesn't necessarily mean that babies get less sleep, nor does sleeping through mean that they get more (in total). Obviously mom gets more sleep if baby sleeps through, but there are other less risky ways for mom to get that sleep imo.

[mrsmugoo]

Sure, that's true. However I do think that preserving Mum's mental health is also important.

We all know what we're signing up for then we have babies but I think once you're 4/5 months in, if you're not getting at least one 3/4 hour unbroken stretch a night it can really start to break you down and affect your state of mind and ability to care for your baby safely. Sleeping in 1-2 hour chunks just isn't sustainable.

This is a valid consideration imo.

[Diryan]

High cortisol levels over time can have severely detrimental effects on brain development

Yep, true. But you know what reduces cortisol levels? Sleep. It is detrimental to a baby's brain development if they are waking frequently, and are spending their days overtired.

I had a 3 month old who was waking frequently, and was consequently crying during the day because he was tired. I sleep-trained him - yes, there were tears but he wasn't crying for long, and he was never crying alone. Within three days he was self-settling like a dream and was SO much happier. He hardly ever cries now, and I fully believe that I did the right thing, both for him & myself.

[TheresLotsOfFarmyardAnimals]

High cortisol levels have been proven but they don't know their effect. Cortisol levels also increase when breastfeeding.

[caeleth84]

Obviously being over-tired isn't good for a baby either, but frequent waking doesn't necesarily equal over-tired baby. It can, but generally they'll just sleep more often or longer. Or in DS' case, he was only awake for about a few minutes at a time, so he (and I!) actually got more sleep than if we'd spent time trying other methods of getting him down again. Once he stopped waking at night he slept shorter in total.

I agree though, you can get to a point where sleep training can be the logical solution. I just think you should read up on it, make sure you know that it can have quite negative long-term consequences (by no means guaranteed) and that it's a last resort rather than a knee-jerk reaction to "well, everyone else's babies are sleeping through so there must be something wrong with mine, I better fix it".

The effects of cortisol have been proven, but what they're unsure of are the thresholds. So while prolonged crying definitely negatively impacts brain development, they don't know how long is "prolonged", how severe is the impact, etc. And it's a very complicated issue since already by the time we're born we have quite different starting points due to genetics and development during pregnancy. But again, it's up to us to assess the risks as best we can and accept those we can live with.

Why Love Matters is all about research on early brain development, and is hugely interesting.