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please help, still singing himself to sleep

34 replies

sachkrimbo · 07/07/2006 09:00

I posted a message some months ago about this same issue. My not so ds of 3 1/2 years has a habit of singing himself to sleep, this has now gone on for over 2 years and I'm at the end of my tether.
At bedtime it takes up to 30 minutes before he will go to sleep and he always does it by singing. When he wakes up in the night he then does the same thing for up to 2 hours at the top of his voice. Last night was a mammoth session of almost three hours. During this time my dh and I went from ingoring it to timing him out to try to get him to shut up. As the time went on I found myself getting rough with him and I am really worried about this. We are all exhausted, and I'm sure it's affecting my relationship with him.
We went to a sleep clinic where the helpful health visitor told me it's a unique problem and she's not sure what she can do about it. I just want to be able to teach him how to get to sleep without waking the whole neighbourhood up

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sachkrimbo · 07/07/2006 13:24

No body got any advice or is it bad timing, Friday and all that

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sachkrimbo · 07/07/2006 13:25

No body got any advice or is it bad timing, Friday and all that

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moondog · 07/07/2006 13:26

Tape him and play it back to him when he starts.
Might freak him out and shut him up!

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moondog · 07/07/2006 13:27

Or go into his room and start singing yourself.

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eenywifemum · 07/07/2006 13:27

maybe he is going to grow up to be a great singer!! sorry to sound trite I can see how it would be a problem. I dont know what to suggest but I hope someone comes on here with some good advice for you. Can you treat it like the whole 'naughty step' thing? Warning, then a mild punishment. Or take him somewhere he can sing to his hearts content to get it out of his system? Good luck!

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morningpaper · 07/07/2006 13:27

can you shut the doors and use earplugs?

does he go to nursery or anything? What does he do there?

Have you tried star charts?

what does he say about it?

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lazycow · 08/07/2006 07:29

Does it always takes so long for him to go to sleep? Does he seem tired enough at bedtme? Does he stop if you go in/pick him up or bring him in bed with you. I am not suggesting you should do all these things just wondering if you have tried them to see if it is his way of unwinding.

If you think he is genuinely ready for bed and is just happy but unwinding I would suggest you do what dh and I do when ds is having a spate of bad nights which is take turns with the earplugs so that you each get a least a few good nights of sleep a week each. I would suggest both of you wearing them for a couple of days but I know I like one of us to be aware of ds in case he gets upset or is ill so we compromise by taking turns.

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SoupDragon · 08/07/2006 08:11

Is it the sound of the action/feel of the singing do you think? Put a kid's cd player in his room to play when he needs to go to sleep and gradually reduce the volume?

Lots of babies "sing" themselves to sleep - DD sounds more like a creaking door but she is only 5 months old I guess your son has just progressed to actual singing. I doubt he can help it - it's just like sucking his thumb really, only louder!

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NotQuiteCockney · 08/07/2006 08:13

He's pretty old, can you reason with him? Ask him to try to do it quieter? (As the singing doesn't sound like the problem, just the volume of it?)

I'd also try a noise machine, but then I'm mad for them. That way, your son would have a consistant noise to listen to, which might stop him singing? (You could try a radio tuned to static instead, as a trial?) Maybe he is surprised to wake up in the middle of the night and not hear himself singing, which wakes him fully, iyswim?

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sachkrimbo · 08/07/2006 09:35

Sorry, went to work ans was really bust so didn't get a chance to check what was being said.
In answer to some of the questions, when it gets really bad we do end up putting him into time out but I'm not convinvced that it does anything, he usually just starts again when he gets back into bed.
We shut the doors when we go to bed, ours and his but he really does it at the top of his voice. We can hear him on the baby monitor (dd's room is right next door to his). Not tried ear plugs - that might be a really good idea. He does go to nursery, doesn't sleep there anymore but when he did have a nap during the day NO singing ever!!! Star charts have really never done it for him, we did resort to 'you get a treat in the morning if you don't sing' which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't, the treat was dictated by him and was usually something like chocolate or a small car.
He does seem tired when we put him to bed, we did think maybe he wasn't tired but often (esp at the end of the week) he complians of feeling tired at dinner time (FFS, we are all tired having been up every night being sung to!!!)and sometimes does go to sleep straight away.
NotQuite Cockney, tell me more about the noise machine idea, do you then keep the static on all night? If they wake up and you've turned it off what happens? I'm just worried we'd be replacing the singing with something else and then would get woken up to put the 'noise' on again, iyswim. Anyway, thanks everyone for all the advice.
Had another bad night, having changed his room around to exactly how he wanted it, still up from 1 to 2.30, not so bad but I was convinced he would sleep allnight.

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FrannyandZooey · 08/07/2006 09:37

You just keep the noise on all night, sach. It's a great trick because you can take it on holiday etc so everywhere sounds like home, you can drown out noises outside etc with it.

We don't have one but we often use a fan for the same purpose. We all sleep fine with it on.

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sachkrimbo · 08/07/2006 09:48

F&Z, you hit the nail on the head. We have put a small fan in his room whilst it's been hot and there was apparently a big discussion last night when dh put ds to bed about him wanting the fan on even though it wasn't hot. Might just try that tonight and just leave it on (we usually turn it off when we go to bed). BTW, forgot something, he does have a big thing aobut wanting to be a singer or a guitarist, either Axl or Slach from Guns n Roses. There is a heavy music influence in the house, dh used to be a drummer, and ds has drums, guitars,mandalin but then so do a lot of other kids so I can't decide if it's related.

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noonar · 08/07/2006 10:59

Although the singing maybe a unique problem, could it be sorted out by a less unique stategy- eg a reward system? Not very inspired suggestion, I know, but we cracked our night time tantrums with a box of lucky dip- type treats as a reward. My daughter woke repeatedly during the night, but got a reward in the morning if she settled back to sleep QUIETLY, the first time we went in to her. Could you do the same for your son- accept that he will wake and sing, but reward him for stopping or reducing the volume the FIRST time you ask him. good luck!

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FrannyandZooey · 08/07/2006 11:03

oh god sachkrimbo, my ds (3.2) is the same about music and that's partly why I wanted to reply to this thread, because it struck a chord with me. Ds is obsessed with drums and often 'drums' himself to sleep by tapping out rhythms on the wall

I am terrified now that we may be going the same direction as you

To be more sensible, though, I think it is just the silence in the night when he wakes up, as NQC has said. He has latched onto music as a comfort device, as he loves it so much, and then when he wakes up in the night (as we all do), he needs his comforter again. Only instead of a teddy or whatever, he has to sing very loudly and disturb you all

I would try the fan / white noise first of all and if that didn't work, I would actually put a radio / cd player in his room and let him have that on all night. It's not ideal but you will all go bonkers if this continues. Perhaps you and dh could also have fan / white noise in your room to drown out his sounds? I really wish you the best of luck.

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sachkrimbo · 08/07/2006 11:43

F&Z, should we get together and get the band started now???? Michael Jackson was singing by the time he was 5, is this the way our kids are going???!!!
I think we will try the fan cause we've got a small pram fan that we could then take away with us, if it works (please).
The reward system thing just didn't work with him, we also tried taking things away and 'you'll get them back if you sleep all night', sometimes worked somtimes couldn't care less. Also tried it with potty training, with the same result. Completely strong willed stubborn child (gets it from dh of course).

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FrannyandZooey · 08/07/2006 11:49

No, the reward thing is so flawed (as I seem to be arguing on about 5 different threads simultaneously this morning, oddly enough)

My ds is a guitarist / drummer. With your ds on vocals I think we could definitely have something going

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noonar · 08/07/2006 12:00

I agree that reward systems can easily 'run out of steam' and their impact lessens over time, but have found them useful in the short term to try to break a habit/cycle of behaviour. Or maybe you think they're flawed for different reasons?? Also, I suspect my 4yr old can be reasoned with a little more than a 3 yr old- but am pretty sure it worked for her while she was still 3.

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NotQuiteCockney · 08/07/2006 12:15

I'm not 100% opposed to rewards. But I don't think rewards work for unconscious behaviours, like singing one's self to sleep. A fan is very good white noise (and yes, as F&Z says, white noise is something you keep on all night - our white noise machines are just always on, with the sounds of the sea or north woods or some such new age rubbish).

Normally, historically, I think the whole family would be sleeping in one room, so you'd always hear your parents breathing etc. As well as the wind in the breeze.

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sachkrimbo · 08/07/2006 12:18

I'm not sure it is an unconcious thing though, when we time him out at night, if its really bad, he stops singing. If it was unconcious would he do that?

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FrannyandZooey · 08/07/2006 12:27

noonar, if bribes / rewards have helped you to solve sleep problems then respect to you. If I thought they would work for us I would have done the same tbh. However in general, yes I think rewards are flawed because they tend to decrease intrinsic motivation, so the person is likely to perceive the behaviour that's being rewarded as unpleasant. Children rewarded for playing with certain toys stopped choosing those toys after the reward system ended - they understood that if you have to be bribed / rewarded to do something, it must be something nasty

I also feel that rewards and punishments are two sides of the same coin and that neither has much respect for human dignity. However in cases of sleep problems desperate measures are sometime needed (as I say I would have done the same if I thought it would work )

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1Baby1Bump · 08/07/2006 12:35

dont have a suggestion but am glad i am not the only one who occaisionally gets a little rough with child at night!

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noonar · 08/07/2006 13:37

I completely agree with your philosophical objections to rewards and sanctions, f and z. I also agree that desperate times call for desperate measures!

A classic example of this is the fact that I went from bed sharer to cc expert in the space of 18 months- cc is something that I've never really 'approved of'. If I hadnt been at the end of my tether, I'd never have routinely used a system of rewards, either. I cringe when I see some of my friends using reward charts to the extreme- eg having 5 or 6 targets to reach- ranging from sitting at the table to eat to not getting up before a specified time! I also hate the 'naughty step'..... but them my girls are quite placid , so its easy for me to say!

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Bink · 08/07/2006 14:29

If it makes you feel less out on a limb, sach, I have a singer, who's seven now - and not just a bedtime singer, he'll sing all day long if allowed. Not songs he's been taught, just his own fuguelike melodies, sometimes with rather nice eerie lyrics. It's been commented on throughout his life, so I have an idea how you feel.

Do you notice anything in particular about when yours sings? Mine sings most when he's had an usually busy day, or is doing something a bit challenging (eg building something complicated: sing sing sing SING sing sing) or mulling over something in the car. So I know my ds's singing is his way of processing or decompressing, so mostly I don't try to stop him - though over the years we've tried to teach him to notice where & when singing is and isn't appropriate (ie, not at school, however interesting the subject is). The thing he has learned is to sing quietly, which I think he got under control at about 4. I think that's what I'd focus on with yours - the volume control - because if he is like mine you can no more plug the singing urge than you can stop fizzy water fizzing.

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sachkrimbo · 08/07/2006 20:34

Oh Bink, thank you so much. We both read your message and felt relief but also oh shit - it goes on for so long. I definately think the issue is the volume, I would like him to have a good nights sleep as well but he does seem to function well with the amount he gets.
But - do you have any tips on how you control the volume? We have tried to encourage him to sing quietly but to no avail so far.
Anyway, we have gone to bed tonight, with a fan on, completely knackered so actually fell asleep straight away. I guess I'll be back tomorrow either full of the joys of white noise or ranting again. Thanks to all you MNers who have had far more useful ideas then any sleep clinic or health visitor.

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sachkrimbo · 09/07/2006 08:04

Hooray, a great nights sleep, from 7.30 till 6.15. Not sure if it's down to how completely exhausted he was or the fan which was left on all night.

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