Such awful awful nights

[celandine]

DS2 is 8 weeks, bf and is very unsettled at night leaving me knackered each day and in tears with him each night.

Last night he fed at 9pm, 11.30-1am, stayed awake til 2am, fed at 3.30 - 4.30, 5.30, 6 and 7am. He often does a good stretch between 9pm and 1am but then it all goes downhill and I can't seem to settle him after his feeds. He will feed both sides, and then his eyes pop open and he will root for more. He won't take a dummy. We both end up crying and I feel at a loss of what to do to get him back to sleep after his feeds. He ends up in bed with me but it doesn't make him go to sleep any more.

I just cannot go on like this as am averaging 5 hours a night with a 2.7 year old to look after too.

Any advice?

[Surfermum]

This sounds awful for you. I don't have any advice but I wanted to bump it for you as I'm sure someone else will.

[BettySpaghetti]

Celandine, sounds like you're having a rough time of it at the moment.

When my DS was little he started having longer settled times 9pm-1am (ish) like you mentioned your DS does. This would usually follow cluster feeding in the early evening.

Anyway, after the cluster feeding I would leave him with DP in the lounge and go to bed to get a few hours in before the night started! DP would be watching TV and DS would sleep for a good few hours in his bouncy chair. Any chance you could do this?

It seemed a bit odd sometimes going to bed as early as 8.30pm but you just have to grab sleep when you can -don't think I realised this with my first!

(and remember the mantra...its only a phase..it will get better........find myself saying that about all sorts of things)

[celandine]

Thanks BettySpaghetti, I do actually go to bed at around 8.30 - 9pm already! I'd go stircrazy if I didn't. I usually get 3-4 hours if he sleeps well for his first shift, but I don't get much after that.

I keep thinking it cant get any worse but it seems to be. i also can't help but be tempted to try a bottle of formula last thing so that hubby can give it (I've no time to express) and I'll have a nice full breast to give him when he wakes later in the night. I'm quite sad to find myself seriously contemplating this though and haven't quite given in yet. Saying that, I don't think his unsettled nights are hunger related, just curious to try.

[SPARKLER1]

Hi poor you. It's hard work isn't it? Although my dds are now 6 and 4 I remember this well. DD2 was always waking for feeds - I was exhausted. In the end I would give her a really long feed in the evening or until she fell asleep and then pass her to dh and go to bed. Dh would carry her around in a baby carrier on his tummy and walk up and down the hallway with her if she started crying. She obviously wasn't hungry and she'd just been fed and she too wouldn't take a dummy. After a couple of hours, if she hadn't fallen asleep and still wouldn't settle dh would wake me up so I could feed her again.
I must say it was easier with one - I BT dd1 for 6 months, dd2 was only about 3/4.
You do have to think of yourself - you'll be no good to anyone if your not feeling right.
xxx

[Sparklemagic]

Well said Sparkler, Sparkle agrees with you!! Celandine, if you have fed him and he won't take more, then pass him over to your DH to cope with for a while. I know that he prob. has to be up for work, but then SO DO YOU. My DH has always said that babies and toddlers are the nardest, most tiring job there is, so there is not an excuse for it being just you who is up in the night. Try to take shifts more and split the nights more fairly - what with this and breastfeeding, you will become ill unless you get some more help.

Also liked your idea of trying a bottle for DH to give - you shouldn't feel guilty about this, your DS is obviously getting plenty of breastmilk so if it helps YOU, do it!!

Very best of luck, I am thinking of you. Hope things go well, and as others have said this does not go on for ever (but you already know that!)

[bakedpotato]

I'm interested that you say, 'I don't think his unsettled nights are hunger related.'
How much does he sleep by day?

[SPARKLER1]

celandine - I don't mean to sound like you don't know how to BF - you are doing a fab job - just wondered if DS is taking enough milk from the first breast before you switch to the second. Maybe getting the foremilk but not enough hindmilk? Just a thought. x

[celandine]

thanks for all the great replies.

Bakedpotato, he goes 2-3 hours during the daytime and doesn't sleep too much, about 4-5 hours altogether.

Sparkler1, I do sometimes wonder if I keep him on long enough. Sometimes he takes himself off after 15 minutes and the breast is empty then, but usually I swap after 20-25 mins anyway because otherwise he wouldnt come off until much later, just nibbling, and I would be there forever. If I don't give him both sides he wants feeding much sooner. 40 minutes for feeds every 2 hours is enough time I feel, maybe I'm wrong though. He is 25th centile and wasn't gaining weight great in the early weeks but ok now. He clusterfeeds from 5-9 and he just dozes on and off so I end up not really knowing how much he's had off each side or what on earth I'm doing then!

Sparklemagic - fine idea but I would feel so awful to pass him over to DH. He sleeps downstairs as we're so unsettled at night and works very hard and long hours 7am - 6pm. I certainly wouldn't be able to anyway.

I just feel like I'm doing something wrong. Putting him to bed too late, not feeding enough, though as I said I'm sure the 1-6am unsettledness isn't hunger related. In the early weeks i made the mistake of repeatedly feeding him each time he woudn't settle back into his moses basket and he ended up being sick but still cried and wanted to suck. I think it's comfort related. I know I just need to ride it out, just enviuos at reading about these 8 week olds who are sleeping so much better. I'd be so happy with 3 night wakings so long as he went back to sleep for an hour or so after I do feel like he's not happy and it's making me so miserable too.

Anyway, must go get DS1 from nursery. I've had 2 hours to myself this afternoon as DS2 is sleeping, hence such a long message!

[bakedpotato]

I do feel for you. Stop thinking you're doing something wrong, you're not.
5 hrs daytime sleep isn't outlandish by any means, but it might be even better if you trimmed it to 4. Try not to let him sleep after 4.30 if you want him to go down at 7.
Are you swaddling? This can really help.
Are you keeping the room dark and quiet for those night feeds? Don't bother changing him for eg unless he's done a real stinker

[Sparklemagic]

celandine, don't you work very hard and lonh hours, 24 hrs a day?

[FrayedKnot]

Celandine I remember DS was exactly the same at that age, and I used to go to bed at 8pm too!!!

But he was my first and although knackered I did have a chance to catch up on sleep during the day.

If I was faced with the same situation again and a toddler to look after too, I would seriously persevere with expressing (I too felt like I never had time / enough milk etc so I never really got going with it).

Have you got a BF counsellor you could talk through the expressing with?

Despite your DH sleeping downstairs and having to work I think you have got to rope him in a bit. Could he maybe help more with the weekend nights?

FWIW it did settle and although DS didn;t sleep through until he was much older, by 3 months he was only waking once, (I dream fed him at 10.30 before bed, and he would wake once more), and I started to get my evenings back!

Hang on in there. His feeds will get quicker too so you will get less disturbed by nightfeeds when they take less time. I am no expert but I would say he is just growing like crazy, and trying to maintain your milk supply, so he can get all he needs.

You just need to ask for all the help you can possibly get I think, to get you through this stage.

[EHmum]

It's no fun looking after two los with no sleep. I would really recommend Gina Ford's contented little baby book which suggests a daytime routine that makes sure they don't sleep too much during the day thereby ensuring a good nights sleep. My ds1 had night feeds until he was 15 months and ds2 has just dropped night feeds at 6 months, but on the routine they always settled after the feed which makes things much easier. I only started with the GF routine with ds1 when he was around 9 or 10 weeks - i used to feel physically sick when he was waking up because i was so knackered so tried it out of desperation. with ds2 i started it from around 2 weeks and he is so much more content it's amazing. Some people think the routine is too rigid but surely it's got to be better than feeling like you do - once baby has got the hang of the routine you can be less rigid. Hope things get better for you soon whatever you do.

[tribpot]

I'm sorry, I agree. Your dh needs to help out despite working hard (hell, we all work hard). Could anyone take your older one off your hands for a couple of hours so you can at least get some sleep in the day when ds2 sleeps?

If he's not hungry, is he windy/colicky in the night? Would being walked around help? (That last thing you want to contemplate, I admit).

From what I've read on here, I don't think a breast can be empty, but I wait to be corrected by those who know better, on the other hand from what you say he might try and feed for the entire night non-stop if you let him? He's rooting but you don't think he's hungry?

[celandine]

such thoughtful replies, yet i can't see how the suggestoins will work for me.


Baked potato - he is swaddled with a miracle blanket which i think gives me that nice 9.30pm -1am stretch. I left one arm out last nigt to see if he might comfort suck his fingers but he woke up at 11.30pm so i fed him then instead. Room is dark apart from a small light to latch him on, quiet, no eye contact etc and I rarely change his nappy unless, as you say, it's a real stinker! I wouldn't put him down at 7pm yet because I am worried he would then have his one good stretch before 10-11pm and be unsettled for the rest of the entire night. I would have to be in bed by 7pm - noooooo!

DH says he wishes e could help but i don't see how he can. I couldn't sleep anyway if i could hear baby screaming downstairs. Also, i may be knackered in day but at least i don't hav to mentally concentrate and think like dh does at work. He's also stressed enough at work without tiredness. I would consider it on a weekend though.

What i wish i could do is express enough milk to give dh a bottle to do a late feed. But he feeds every 2 hours on both sides so I don't see how i can. I would consider talking to a bf counseller, good idea.

EHmum, i did Gina Ford with DS1 and he lost weight on it. DS2 also had difficulty gaining weight in the early weeks so i demand fed and he gained more. Couldn't possibly enforce a routine on him, as much as i would love to, for he's only a small baby now. Also, he doesn' sleep too much in the day (4 - 5 hrs at most, usually less) but certainly doesn't ensure him a good night's sleep!

tribpot - can't sleep when he does as he'll only sleep for longer than 45 minutes in the day if being pushed/carried. Good idea though.

Anyway, have just fed him now, been 1-handed typing so scuse errors and he's just gone to sleep fully swaddled next to me in moses basket. I've just been tearful with dh as I'm dreading the night again, and he hates it too as can hear me crying during the night when i can't settle the baby. Must go to sleep now to get some rest. He's fed at 5.15, 7.15 and 8.30 tonight. Does that sound ok? I barely had any milk for the last feed but he seemed so tired so had to give him bedtime feed then.

I will update you all on tonight's sleep tomorrow. Thanks so much for the advice and sympathies!

[celandine]

tribpot, i didn't think he was hungry because he has good length night feeds but then recently he is not 'satiated' after a feed and whimpering for more and sucking like mad so maybe not enough milk?

Is it best to not give in and only feed him after every 2 hours at night even if he wants to be on every hour? I really don't know what's best anymore.

Anyway, to sleep now

[tribpot]

God, celandine, I have no idea (ds is formula fed, not my first choice, I should add) but it sounds like you should feed on demand for as long as demand continues and see what happens. But mainly I'm bumping this for the bf crowd to come and offer wisdom!

I know what you mean about not having to concentrate, and also about not being able to sleep if you can hear the baby crying anyway, but your dh can shave a couple of hours off his sleep to help out - bear in mind I work and have a baby, my dh does the night feeds for me but I have to get up, get him up, get the bottle ready and then deal with ds afterwards. And work!

[Texan]

I was wondering if you've thought about going to see a cranial osteopath?? DS was a crying baby from day one. He also was a slow feeder and was never a good sleeper at night -- at 6 weeks I took him to an osteopath and he started sleeping much longer stretches during the night as well as having longer stretches during the day without the crying. It changed all our lives - I finally was able to get rest and felt like a new person.

[barefeete]

You sound really shattered and def need to focus on getting yourself back together. Make sure you are eating lots of good calorie food. Cake and chocolate worked wonders for me. I bf fed my son exslusively for 5 months and i know that the huge intake of chocolate related foods really helped keep my milk supply going.

I would def recommend formula. I was really apprehensive about putting my DS on it until i realised how little milk he was getting in the evenings. The first bottle i gave him he gulped down (8fl oz!) and then slept for 2 hours in the evening which for him was a first and he was 5 months old!


One of the main things i know helped me to get my DS to sleep through was breast feeding on my side in bed during those hideous night feeds. I am sure that he feel asleep quite quickly without getting much of a big feed. I would latch him on, make sure his was held against me by the nursing v shaped pillow and i would then doze whist he fed. I would then wake up about 30 mins later and he would be asleep next to me. If i moved him back to his cot then he would wake and scream, need excessive winding!, and generally not go back to sleep until the next feed time. So i found that leaving him asleep next to me really helped as i could then get some more sleep.

Not sure if this is helpful but i found that reading other peoples ideas really helped. Just remember it really is just a stage and in a fews months you will look back and wonder when it ended!

[FrannyandZooey]

Agree try feeding in bed. At least lying down you could rest and maybe doze. If you decided to co-sleep you could probably do some of the feeds without either of you fully waking - dp watched me and ds do it, and said ds would stir and I would give him a nipple without him actually waking up or crying, in my sleep.

It is so very hard and you are not getting it wrong - these early weeks are tough. Take care of yourself and grab every morsel of sleep that you can - take up every friend's offer of help, call in any favours and get people to take your older child out, even get in a local teenager after school if you can, to earn a few quid by playing downstairs with your toddler while you snooze?

It will pass, it will.

[arwen]

Also can't recommended a cranial oestopath highly enough. They are fab! Sorted out my son's horrendous eating and sleeping after only 3 sessions although he still took nearly 3 years to go right through the night consistently.....
C.O. can't do any harm so would give it a try.

[tjacksonpfc]

hi im having a similar problem at the mo with my ds hes 4 months old and used to sleep really well but lately has started waking up at nights regularly for feeds. which is leaving me exhausted as we also have a 19month old ds. sparklemagic you said get your bf to help with nights that is all well and good but my dp is a postman so is up at 4am himself for work so the nights are left to me to do and then he helps out when he comes back home in the afternoons. i know things will get better my dd sleeps from 6 pm till 7am with no problems and has done since 9 mpnths so im just counting down the time now. stick with it

[BexSandy]

Hi there,

I have the solution! Contact Millpond via Google. They are brilliant, knowledgable, sympathetic, baby sleep specialists. I found them when I was at my wits end after a year of my baby waking at 4.30-5am. It changed my life. A friend is currently using them and says the same thing. They can resolve any sleep problem you may have with your baby and they can advise you over the phone. It costs approx £175 but I think it's amazing value since it will enable you to function again, be a good mum and get some rest. Can't recommend them highly enough. Good luck!

[Sparklemagic]

Tjackson, when a child has slept well and starts waking again it's often a sign that they are getting hungry and might need to be weaned, that's the major sign that I know about anyway. What do you reckon?

Yep, difficult for your DH to help obviously! Though sensibly he helps out in the afternoon - but I know it doesn't help at night!

[nellieellie]

God - sounds awful. I would really recommend cranial osteopathy. Lots of people have found it v useful. My DS would cry loads during the day (though always good at night) and it certainly helped. I also found "enforcing" naps at regular times in the day made a world of difference. This meant leaving him to cry for couple of mins and he would go to sleep (I could never leave him for longer, or if he was really distressed). A routine for me really worked - feeds every 2 half - 3 hours, then activity until he seemed tired (yawning, turning away, staring) then down for sleep. Because he was more restful during the day he slept longer during the night. I also expressed a bottle for him for his last feed in addition to BF. I quite understand how with another child you have no time to do this - to be honest it's driving me mad at the mo and I only have the one, but hard as it is I'd say given the hard time you're having why not try bottle of formula with last feed??
I'm sure you alrady now about it but the book "The Baby Whisperer" is really good - not quite as Guantanamo Bay as Gina Ford but pro a flexible routine. Also I know people who have taken bits from Gina Ford to address their particular problem and it has worked - you don't have to follow it to the letter.
Hope things get better for you.