The only thing that anyone can say for certain is that childhood does not last forever. Everyone has a lifetime that they can learn in, but only one shot at being a child, and family holidays - whether by a pool or up a mountain - are part of this. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that a child's education is badly affected by a holiday. The government are constantly going on about the "hard core middle classes" who are taking their children out of school but these children are all doing very well at school. As a teacher and a parent I think that the whole idea that holidays in termtime are bad for children is a myth. Maybe taking a child out just before GCSEs is a bad thing but certainly not otherwise. The children that lose out are those who are constantly missing odd days for no real reason, not those whose parents choose to spend quality family time with them on holiday.

As a teacher in an International school I have many students who take time out for trips to see relatives, holidays etc and currently have 2 students taking 2 and 4 weeks respectively away from school. As these are the 2 most academically able students in my class I am confident they will cope with the additional workload when they return to school - one is on safari in Africa and the other is visiting his Dad in Canada. What I wouldn't give for the opportunity!

What gets my goat is the families who take days off school - because Mum didn't wake up on time this morning - or - there was an 'r' in the month. Having totted up my attendence register it seems these are often the same students who miss time at school for sporting events (sanctioned by the school) and who are the ones struggling in class. When added up these students are missing more time from school than the ones taking sactioned holidays. Who's priorities are these?

I absolutely agree with the person who said 2 weeks lying by a pool doesn't count as educational but can also sympathise with those who choose to take advantage of lower prices during term time, particularly for primary school children. As long as time out of school doesn't interfere with assignments blah, blah.

I can't fill in the survey because I'm a mum-to-be but will have some big thinking to do later on as half my family is in NZ and half in the UK. Think will be writing interesting letters to Principals justifying overseas holidays.

Even if I were not a teacher it just would not enter my head to take my child on holiday during term time. But lots of parents seem to do it. A holiday is a luxury not an essential. Of course there are exceptions and some holidays are educational but having spoken to pupils on their return it is clear that most are not.

As for school trips, they need to be cleared by the teachers whose lessons are going to be affected and non educational ones tend not to get cleared so have to happen in holidays. We also have trip free zones when no trips or time out for staff is allowed. With the growth of modular exams the time when trips are allowed is shrinking. Having said that we do run a lot of trips but they are hard work. I have just returned from one and the students working day started at 8.30 and endede at 5pm with another hour of work after tea. They also have to catch up when they get back with other subjects, some had taken work with them to keep up to date.

ps to reply to another comment, yes it IS the teaching staff's responsibility to sort the parents out on an individual basis, and say if there's an issue - e.g. parents who stay in bed on Mondays etc - but that's a different issue that can be taken up with the head teachers.

I also think it's the parents' responsibility to be involved with the school and feedback some of the effort - so after our hols, we will take in photos, do a talk etc. Also help the kids with reading and artwork, and help take them swimming. It's give and take.

I know a lot of parents can't do that, work etc of course. But I guess I'm just sayign that where teachers and parents combine to bring up children, the relationship between teachers and parents shoudl be a flexible, adult relatinship not all government ruled... (don't get me started on the school rules about what to put in lunch boxes do they not KNOW how much sugar is in yoghurts and how a biscuit could even be better for them... harumph... oh lord soap box alert shut me up... byeee)

I believe we should be allowed to take our children out whenever we want. I don't think holidays are the cause of the main educational issues in the UK.
Holidays can be amazing life enhancing experiences and can teach the child a wealth of things; we focus on things our children would not do at school or nursery, e.g. photography, fishing, sailing, kayaking, wildlife, walking, and so on. We also (at the school's behest) fill in a daily scrapbook.
We are parents and should not be treated as if we are children ourselves, waiting to be naughty. Most parents have a responsible and intuitive attitude to the education of their children. The rules are condescendingly strict.
If my child were at a critical stage of education or struggling at school, then a holiday would be a bad idea and we wouldn't go. If he is doing well but is tired and frustrated, and our family needed a break, we would go. It's my job to judge. I know him best, not the school.
I DO believe we have a team responsibility to the school and excessive holidays will disrupt teaching and be unfair to the teacher - so my comments are to be comprehended as 'holidays in moderation'. One holiday here or there doesn't hurt and can potentially be fabulous.
My eldest is five, to put in context - the age where, by the end of term, he's tired, pink, sweaty and emotionally labile. So next week, he will be fishing, doing art (beach pebble painting art) and helping train a puppy, with his younger brother and his dad and I. That's the best place for him.
When he's 16, he'll be swotting with the others, and I'll be holding the remote control!
Will be interested in what the survey says!
Best wishes all x

'Policy isn't MAKING parents lie about absences, as someone suggested. Parents' unwillingness to pay the market rate for the holiday they have CHOSEN makes them lie!'

Doesn't that depend on the school?

here my nboys have to take AL to appear in a community event (a sort of theatrical thingy) in the towmn we come from, and to attend therapy if private at decision of NHS.

I dount the carnival season would move their 30 plus performances for ds's, yet one day a year enables them to make these performances (all others on a weekend( and to aprticipate in the fundraising, building etc- hugely beneficial

As for the therapy- well we'll go whatever.

When dh finishes tudyng his work will be linked to the festical season- so summer simply will be a no-no, that and main holiday occasions such as Chrostmas (stage lighting). I think family time is important (esp for a large family of boys with their dad)

the local LEA also ahs a policy on its site that dentist appts that are not emergency cou8nt as AL also, given that a dentist is akin to gold dust that seems silly- you take what you get

I wonder how many days are taken on holiday or for important things? E uin ds1's class who take a day a month when her dad returns for his 2 days off work so she can meet him at the airport etc

I have done it. Only problam is that we don't have any Sainsbury's within hundreds of miles..

I'm taking DD for a holdiay during the last week of term. She says they won't be doing anything important anyway.

I have taken her in term time before and its hasn't has any ill effect on her education.

As a single parent I would have struggled to pay school holiday prices and we wouldn't have gone anywhere.

School allow 10 days no quibble. She has been away doing outdoor ed with a club not organised by school without the need to mark it as holiday as school said "it's beneficial to their development".

I won't take her out next year as it's the final one and she need to study hard.

Sounds like fun Slug - hope you get some good weather!

Hi anniemac, am taking DD out of school for 2 weeks over Xmas precisely so she can go to NZ for the exact same reasons.

ps: summer holidays here are bitter winter In NZ and most of my NZ family are not able to take time off work at that time - basically its a crap time to go.

I was taken out of school for about 4 weeks or so when I was 14 for the holiday of a lifetime to visit family overseas - it was a great decision - I have the memories of that time for life and in some ways the holiday had a very positive change on me.

I will also want to take DD out of school once she starts next year for for trips to NZ else she will never spend time with half her family. I would consider taking her to school in NZ temporarily while I was out there (some people I know do this)/

My DSS have been taken out of school for days here and there for very important family meet ups only (eg, when family are visiting from overseas and its only way to see them) and one of them was taken to Oz by his GPs to stay with family once which involved about 2 weeks off school.

Again, it was a good decision.

Its crap to say that kids can't learn a lot from having a really special time with faraway family in a different environment. Learning about where you come from is a very important part of social development. I can understand why you might hold this view if you come from the country where you now live and all your family are based here but its really not true for children of more multi-national families.

I'm all in favour of it and we have done it several times. We can't afford to pay the ludicrous prices charged in the school holidays plus all the kid's Aunts/Uncles/cousins etc live abroad and their school hols are different to ours so we try to visit whilst their cousins are on their hols. Must say tho' I've always felt that DS and DD have learnt as much during a week with us as they would have at school. But we spend the time actively with them and don't just leave them by the pool or in a kids club whilst we prop up the bar ignoring them.

dun

It is not 'the schools' who set this policy. It's set by government.
Why is it that everyone thinks 13 weeks a year is more than enough for teachers but not enough for their children?
Policy isn't MAKING parents lie about absences, as someone suggested. Parents' unwillingness to pay the market rate for the holiday they have CHOSEN makes them lie!
I quite like the idea that a couple of weeks in Florida is a great way to prove your child isn't missing out. I suppose policy makers didn't think of that, they must have been too busy thinking of all those parents who just couldn't be bothered to get their child to school on a regular basis and perhaps thinking it was unfair to make school staff sort the chaff from the grain. I'm sure the government would love all of those parents to carry on sharing the burden of educating the young along with the professionals, even if it means going to Florida to do it!
Holiday companies charge what they do at peak times because that's how they make a profit. It's called market forces. Train companies do the same thing and many people have to deal with those costs every working day.

Can't seem to link to the survey, what am I doing wrong?

Done

Ooh goody one of my fave topics.

I am in France, at my dc's school, it's quite simple, if they are on top of their schooling with no concerns they can go. It is at the teachers discretion. I have ALWAYS requested and taken their work with me, and spent an hour or so each day, over lunch or by the pool or before bed doing it with them.

Not sure how I'd work it if I got permission for 1or2 and not all 3 at any time though.

Would definately not do it through exam time.

Done.

I think there should be a distinction between taking children out for a holiday (which you can choose when it is) or for an event (which is fixed on a date, and you can't change it). I would not take DD out of school for a holiday I had booked, but I would and have taken her out 1 or 2 days a year for something like a family wedding or important event she really wanted to attend / participate in.

Done.

It's really unfair that the holiday companies put prices up so much during the school holidays, this should be banned!

I think it depends on the holiday and where the children are at with their schooling ie falling behind or ahead of the class.

I am in Australia and we took our dc out of school for an entire term (10 weeks) to travel to UK/Europe. They were 9, 7 and 4 at the time. Our school Principal encouraged it as she had done the same when her dc were similar ages. She thought a trip to other countries far outweighed anything they learnt in the classroom.

We did it in the last term of school so that our dc had the majority of the year's education. They didn't miss any exams. My dc are ahead quite a way for their year so no problems there. I had all intentions of taking school work and so on but didn't actually do any. We took them to stonehenge, museums, the colloseum etc - places they learn about in school.

Since we have come back they have had to do projects on other countries and it has been fantastic for them to talk about countries they have been to and show things they got from there. It really was educational for them.

I have and will continue to take them out for a week here or there for camping or beach holidays to save money. If they were falling behind in there work I might rethink it.

just completed survey.
difficult to answer some of the questions as answers to general.
We have taken our children on some termtime family holidays.
For us the reasons are not to save money although i can fully understand why families have to do this sometimes, but for us it is more about the fact that we have little choice sometimes about when my husband gets time off from work. He is often refused leave in school holidays and also works shifts so will sometimes go for a week without spending any time with kids, has to work 4 weekends out of every 5 plus bank holidays and if he is lucky enough to be able to take christmas day off he will have to apply 14 months in advance.
I do believe that it hasn't done them any harm, my daughter last year gained 5 A* and 5 A grade GCSE'S.
We have always tried our best to work our holidays in term time but it is not always possable. Our children miss no time from school apart from the few times we have taken these holidays and believe the times we have had have been of great value to them.
Holidays can be educational and we have taken them to many places that the have been working on at school, roman baths, hadrians wall, museums etc, they used to keep diaries of the holidays and they both learned to swim whilst on holiday. BUT whilst i really value my childrens education, do think that not everything in life has to be educational.
My children have had some great experiences and have many wonderful memories.
Spoke to 1 of my childrens teachers once and couldnt believe that she told me that some of the children they where taking on an activity week had not seen the country or been to the seaside (year 9 pupils) i just thought it was so sad that some children have had such limited experiences for 1 reason or another.
With all of societies problems i don't think it is such a bad thing for a family who want to spend some quality time to take the opportunity and should not be treated as criminals.

done

My Ds starts school in sept and have booked hol in Oct, week before half term as otherwise we could not afford to go

done, but you know my thought already

think I fecked up number 4. am v tired.

Last year my DD1 was in Year 4 and spent the last couple of weeks of the summer term watching DVDs, taking down displays and basically naffing about doing the square root of nothing.

If she hadn't since moved schools I would have been really tempted to take her out of school for a holiday in the week or two before the end of term. It's not like they were doing any worthwhile work anyway!

Done.

As a teacher all the trips I've taken have been during the holidays, all my schools have been very strict on not allowing pupils to miss lessons - even for GCSE/ A level coursework trips. I've spent weeks of my holidays taking educational trips. Obviously some schools are different. I agree, prices in school holidays are ridiculous - as a teacher I've faced paying peak prices even as a single girl, then as a couple - and now as a family - and of course, even tho my dh is not a teacher, he also has to holiday at peak times because of me - so not just parents affected.

Elvis- valid point, dh's work may well be of the intense summer type (will be lots at festivals etc) and if I am teaching by then (he has to do a degree starting Sept first) no idea when we will holiday LOL (might end up subby teaching for a bit if his works takes him overseas a lot)

I used to be very agaionst taking kids out for holidays apart from those carnival days, however after years of high prices and watching everyone else do it I wondered who was the mug....... as it happens summer hols are fine for us ATM but wouldn't be so averse in primary now if needed

We ahd to book holiday leave for a few years for the boys ASD therapies though as the Head wouldnt let them go otherwise

DS's school prefer you NOT to take children out and in practice it's not something I would normally do. However, the in-laws have just sold a house and have bought us tickets to Disneyland Paris for 4 days in September - all expenses paid. No way am I NOT going.

Umm now this one "Children can learn as much from being on holiday as being at school" set me thinking.

Well when we go away we do things of interest (by this I mean things that are of interest to the children, if they are interested in a particular exhibition then we will go, it they are interested in learning about the contents of the rock pools, we do that.) but I know several children who when they go away they learn the names of the local beers(I'm talking about an 8yo), they dont mix with other children and they dont read or write anything for the whole time they are away. Some come back tired and unable to concentrate. They have also missed work so it means having to redo things But there are children who really struggle and some quality time with their family would be a greater advantage than being in school.

I think a lot of the questions could have an option "it depends on the family/child"

We have just discussed this in a meeting in school (teach in secondary) a number of kids miss vital tests and exams due to holidays. E.G Gcse Science is modular and have 6 exams at different times of the year! Coursework has been phased out as of September so GCSE coursework will be done in controlled conditions in the classroom, if your child misses one of those controlled sessions throughout year 10 and 11 it could seriously affect their final grade!

however, I do have sympathy with parents regarding the cost, I'd personally try to holiday in Activity week if the school has one as most students on holiday or having fun activities anyway! I also think its hard for support staff in school who's pay does not reflect having to holiday out of term time as a teachers does (maybe?) If we want to holiday in term time we have to take it unpaid even if its family wedding or something!

You need " am a school governor " on there!

DONE

the survey didn't mention a problem we had every year when our children were younger- not being allowed time off work during school holidays.

mumsnet in general doesn't seem to recognise that people working in jobs with a high proportion of women (for example) just may not be allowed time off. In my case summer, May 1/2 term and most of Easter were a no no. When your budget will only stretch to a caravan in the UK, Feb half term isn't much fun.

Oh and Siter took her ds out of school for three weeks in April- to Australia. She can't get time off easily (nursery manager ) in the holidays. S chool were fine as long as he kept a diary to sdhare with the class (he's in reception)

We took the boys out for a few days alst year over father's Day: after a long and bad time we thought it was the ideal way to celebrate being a family together. We also take them out each Novermeber for a few days as they perform in a carnival and we think that's pretty great.

However, at least one of my bys are the roters MN posters like to start threads about - my guiess is it's only the nice ones people mind not being in?

<<dislaimer grin not becuase of rotter but because of general MN cynicism)

Whether a holiday is educational or not depends on the nature of the holiday - where it is, what you are doing there, etc. Education, after all, does not need to be book learning or literacy/numeracy.

Also it is sometimes in the better interests of a family as a whole to have some time away together for whatever reason. Ideally this should be in school holiday time but this is not always possible due to the way some parent's holiday entitlements fall.

I don't take DD out of school for holidays TBH but if there was a specific need for me to do so I would be prepared to. DD has, for example, missed half a day today. She was at the Take That concert yesterday. She didn't get to sleep, in the car, til 11:30pm and we didn't get home til 2am. I had already prewarned her class teacher she may not be in. I was at work; DH worked from home. DD slept in til 10am, did some playing, some reading and had lunch. She then went off to school after lunch happy and alert ready to learn. The concert wasn't educational, but she (and I) had a great experience and I really don't think one half day will affect her.

why should a holiday have to be educational anyway for it to be ok to take kids out during term time? My dd in Yr 8 and recently a group of kids went on a ski-ing trip during term time, over 5 days they spent 2 days travelling, 2 days ski-ing and another day on a coach(again) looking at the mountains, why wasnt this trip organised for during the holidays so the kids didnt miss school?

The thing is, those (sun lounger) holidays only work properly in term time - without the dc

I think it should be up to the school to decide. I know that many parents keep their kids off just because they can't be arsed to get up that morning to send them off! A lot of the parents at our school however, are on the poverty line. Most work in the local pubs, or the chippy and many are single parents, so for them term-time holidays are more affordable.

The school are in the best position to know when a parent is taking the piss or not. Every child should be able to have a holiday, and if that means a week during term-time because that's all their parents can afford, then so be it.

Those are just my holidays!

When we went to Florida ds did a fab project on the local insect life. Took loads of pictures of different things, included sizes and whereabouts he found them (sun, shade, near water etc) and looked them up on the internet in the evenings to identify what they were. He did a great job of it and wanted to do it because they were doing "bugs" after the half term holiday. So, even though all the other children in his school were on holiday, he still learnt loads whilst riding rollercoasters and visiting mickey - he was only 6yo.

Anyway, the rather waffled point is that any holiday can be a learning holiday, it is down to the effort you are all prepared to put in to it!

(I didn't really think you thought all holidays involved being welded to a sun lounger though )

Done here too.

Done. Mainly because I feel so strongly about how people get ripped off by holiday companies around school holidays and because I don't see the problem in letting a young child have time off. I know there are drawbacks, but that's my personal stance.

Having said that, dd had time out last year, when she was 7 and didn't like missing school, even though it was around the half term holiday. She said she'd rather not go on holiday and be around for school! So this year, here we are having a staycation and planning our days out like loonies.

Last year was Paris and Eurodisney. DD did a project on both which mainly involved taking pictures and keeping a diary. We also did sums with the money and made her estimate lots, and do some French words/speaking/writing whilst we were away. It was fun and quieter (and cheaper of course) than it would have been in school holidays. It's likely to be our last holiday abroad for quite some time though now madame has spoken on the evils of school time holidays.

GuessWhat - yes I know, I was just frothing at the mouth ...! (But I still stand by the assertion that most people won't be taking their children away somewhere educational and/or taking their homework with them)

Waves to hotcross. I'm here a lot actually but we must be on different threads

Oops, I just did it, but didn't realise you need a school aged child, lol . Pregnancy brain. Tom doesn't start nursery till August, but i'd still be a little reluctant to take him out for more than a day or two. I wouldn't take a child out of school if they were doing important exams though. My parents never took us out of school, not even for dental/drs appts!

It's just another thing that the well off can do, and the not-so-well off can't.

Although do really agree with mrsjammi. It costs something like £400 for DD1 to go on a trip to France in Yr 6, (she's in yr 2 currently). That's without passports (we haven't got any as can't afford it) and other 'kit'. We could go on a UK family holiday during May/June (in school time) for that price..all of us!!

BIWI, there are other holidays than beach/pool holidays you know!

FWIW, the only times mine have had time off I have asked the school for lesson plans and homework but been told it is easier for the school to catch the children up themselves than to prepare stuff for us to take
Having said that we are only talking a day or two a year in our case so I guess I can see their point a bit!

why should parents have to lie about taking their kids on holiday? They're our kids so if we want to take them during term time we should. At my dd school alot of parents take their kids during the last week of the summer term probably so they dont have to face the school the following week and also probably for thinking kids dont do much work during the last week of school.

I think there is a big difference between say a Friday/Monday either side of half term for a 5 year old and a 2 week break to lie in the sun for a 15 year old.

however our school sees fit to treat any and all days off taken for holidays as unauthorised.

think in future i will just phone her in ill. So that is what the school is encouraging me to do, lie and teach my child to lie.

We saved £1500 on air fares by taking the friday/monday either side of half term off. we couldn't have afforded to go otherwise. I think 10 days spent with her family even on a beach is worth way more than what she would have learned in school those days.

my DD school sent letters to all parents explaining that any time taken off for holidays during term time would be marked as unauthorised absences and that parents could be fined £50. I took my daughter on holiday a couple of weeks ago, i havent heard anything from the school about this. I normally wouldnt take her out of school but the holiday was paid for by my sister because i cant afford the prices and next year she is starting her GCSEs so i know she wont be able to go on holiday then. I dont agree with the fines and as long as it isnt a important time (sitting SATs, studying for GCSEs) then i think parents should be allowed to take their children on holiday during term time.

Im sorry, but exactly what is the difference between my sons school taking 45 out of 210 children on a trip to Barcelona in term time and me taking him????

Or between me taking out of school for a week so he can go skiing, or the school doing it???

I will not remove him from school as he starts his GCSE course work next year, but up until now I have always taken him out of school.

Last time I took him on holiday, he did a full PADI course and is a qualified diver, Im sure that taught him plenty, and even on an average holiday, we eat in local restaurants, experience local foods, do the usual day trips, he learns plenty, just by being in a foreign country.

And until schools put their money where their mouths are, stop organising foreign trips for the minority, then really, they are in no position to preach.

Hi BIWI, BTW How are you? Haven't 'seen' you around for ages...

Done

Agree survey didn't allow for enough opinion giving. I don't agree with taking holidays in term time, we have as cheap as possible camping holidays in the UK, as we can't afford to have a 'big' holiday in term-time. But I would take dd out for a family wedding, to see family overseas, once-in-a-lifetime type experiences. I worry that we take dd out for 2 weeks on holiday, then she gets chicken pox, is off another week, then a stomach bug etc etc. It's too disruptive IMO.

I have completed it

I have a 15 yr old going into her last year and I would not disrupt her schooling at a crucial time just for a holiday but we all went away in school time before as a family of six it was over a £1900 cheaper in term time not hard choice if honest.

The governing body at my dd's primary school have talked about introducing fines a council thing but the savings will not discourage parents they will just pay the fine when they get back.
We have had parents who have obviously been away blatently lie saying the child has been ill for a fortnight when permission is not available so the allowed time of is a good idea and should stay imo.

The argument that holidays are educational makes me so ! Yes, sure, if you're taking their work from school with them and doing homework, etc - but I'd put good money on the fact that 99% of people don't do that.

Sitting on a beach/by a pool for a fortnight is not educational!

<froths at mouth>

question about school's attitude i think could have been explored more. e.g. our school says unauthorised for any holiday, even 2 days either side of half term i got back as unauthorised after writing for permission.
Totally ridiculous. DD1 is 5. form teacher was fine about it though. The 10 day rule doesn't seem to be a factor in giving permission/declined.

Q4 had my brain hurting.

I have a 7 year old, and no older children. whislt I think it's OK to take him out of school for the odd day here and there, I don't agree with it for secondary school age children.....but, I couldn't give my view on that as I don't have one yet!

A comments box at the end of the survey for any other comments would have been useful as this survey just didn't allow me to express my views fully!!

Like the price of holidays. I do think fair enough in the summer as it's the peak holiday season, better weather etc which has always had a premium attached, but that some companies (mentioning no names CP!!) take the utter piss with the price hikes for the half term holidays, charging more than double the price of the preceeding and following week. There was nowhere for me to express that view on your form

done

Oh bugger i only filled in for the ages of my children can you tell i had a late night?

Oh dear - detention and extra lines for me... sorry about links will see if tech can change to spare my blushes and everyone's irritation!

4andnotout thanks for doing survey - Q4 is a bit wordy but we couldn't think of a different way of doing it - idea is that you give your overall view on whether the 10 days allowance is a good idea, but then you give another view based on the age of the children you have - you might think it's Ok to take a 4 year old out of school but not a 14 year old...

Hope that helps and thanks to all who've done the survey so far.

MNHQ

Done but the last part of Q9 is a bit ropey - it depends on the holiday too much. If the holiday is lazing on a beach in Turkey the same as it has been for the last 7 years running then the child will learn nothing but if the holiday is a once in a lifetime trip to South Africa (for example) that could not be afforded any other time then the child would get a lot more from it (although I am not sure if that is better than school IYSWIM!)

Done it but am i being really thick today as question 4 confused me

Done

your first 2 links take you to MN discussion pages, just to let ya know

the last link is the right one....off to do now

A perennial topic on Mumsnet, we thought it was time to do a survey and see what you all really thought about the high prices charged by holiday companies during school hols, and whether that stopped you going away, or whether you got round it by taking your child out of school during term time.

To take part in the survey you need to have one school-aged child and everyone who takes part will be entered into a prize draw to win £200 of Sainsbury's vouchers (which we've managed to wangle as a prize by linking to their new school uniform pages )

You can fill in the survey here

Thanks and good luck

MNHQ