Legal help with appeals

[ruth6692]

I have justlost an appeal for my 2 sons i used social/ emotional reasons all real reasons . I am now am in the process of appealing again on different grounds as the school is 1 hours walk away or it means catching 2 buses to get to the offered school whereas the preferred school is a 2 min walk. I have been told to seek legal advice but dont really know where to look can anyone reccommend someone or any website as there are so many - im in bolton if that helps . I have only a short time to do this before the appeals process finishes so any help will be really appreciated . Thanks

[mumblechum]

I'd recommend the 11 plus forum website. Just google those words & it'll come up. Ignore the fact that it's ostensibly about grammar entry, the advice on appeals applies for all schools.

[admission]

Ruth,
I am assuming that you are now appealing for different schools as you can only appeal once for a school in each school year.

Do not be worried by the appeals process finishing it goes on through out the year for what are individual appeals for year groups not associated with joining a school, that is reception or year 7. There will probably not be any appeals during the summer holidays as there are always problems in getting the information from schools for appeals.

[Bigmom]

I am a mother of three. In September my children will all go to three differant schools. I have an Infant a junior and a senior school children. He goes.........

In March we heard about the senior school that was selected by the LA for my daughter. To my horrow it was not what we selected. Unfortunately, my older son went to an all boys school and was being bullied we went for an appeal and was unsuccessful. we spoke to the headmaster of the school we originally wanted him to go to and as a result he accepted him into there. We went to the appeal and told the panel all about our daughter and explained the story about our son and things have changed our dughter now has a sibling in the school we was appealing for. The appeal panel said the appeal had to stop there and thenas they needed to get the evidence that our son attends the school. To our surprise we have been turned down again. we thought that the sibling rule would kick in. we didn't hold the headmasters arm up his back and demand that he take our son. we feel taht our honesty is being questioned now. I don;t understand why a panel think I should take betweek 9 and 12 days holiday per year from my annual holiday for inset days for three differant schools? I only get 25 days holiday per year as it is. The whole appeals process is sickening. Can anyone please help me out here

[prh47bridge]

This is very odd.

Firstly, there is no way the appeal panel should have stopped your appeal and made a decision when you hadn't finished giving your evidence. If that is what happened you will have no trouble getting the LGO to order a further appeal. Is that what happened? Did you still have further arguments to make/evidence to submit when they stopped you?

Secondly, the fact your son attends the school should have been irrelevant anyway unless you are saying the LA made a mistake. If he transferred too late for this to be considered as part of the admissions process for your daughter, the LA didn't make a mistake. Your daughter may be in a different admissions category now but what matters is which admissions category she should have been in at the time allocations were made. Again, is that what happened? When did your son transfer to this school?

The panel will not have considered what this means for you in terms of holidays, child care, transport difficulties or anything else like that. They aren't allowed to take any of that into account. Unless the LA has made a mistake, their decision should be based entirely on the effect on the school of admitting an extra child balanced against the effect on your daughter of not being admitted to this school.

If your case was simply that your son has recently transferred to this school and you therefore want your daughter to attend the same school I'm not surprised you lost your appeal. I'm afraid that is not valid grounds for a panel to admit. Was that your case or did you have more?

I'd like to help if I can but I need to understand more about what has actually happened here.

[Bigmom]

My son transfered the day before we went to the appeal. They stopped the appeal when we had other things we wanted to say and they didn't give us all copies of the evidence they had infront of them. the asked me a few names of people and what they all had to do in connectionwith the appeal and I replied that they were all parents from my daughters junior school. I even had a letter from her head teacher, my doctor and my local MP.

My son transfered senior schools as he was the only child from his junior school to have been given a place at the local all boys school. He never fully settled in and had no friends to 'hang out with' as they had all come from the other local that had alread established groups. one of the boys threated to stab him a year ago then two boys jumped him and beat him up. My appeal was turned down but we contacted the school he has now transfered to and spoke to the headmaster who agreed to take him. His previous school backed his transfer and the head of house wrote a letter to help back this up.

I am back in the same situation where my daughter is now the only one from her junior school going to a school where she dosn't know anyone at all. All her class froends will be going to the school she wants to go to along with her older brother.

[Bigmom]

I also want to say that there we ticked the social and practical reason on the application form as advised by the headmaster at the junior school. the reason being my daughter is very small for her age. Only just 1.29m tall and still in a booster seat in the car. all her friends know about this and don't think anything of it. She is desperately afraid of going to a school where bullying is rife and common knowledge where we live as two people have taken their lives in the past over this issue. At the very slow speed that she grows it will take until at least year 9 or 10 for her to be in a car without the seat. She is too uncomfortable in large groups. The senior school we want her to go to is a much smaller school and has smaller class sizes. Non of this was taken into consideration.

The chair of the panel even asked my husband to remember his name and contact his when he has finished his degree in teaching in a years time and said there could be a job for him where he is a govenor. The cheek of it.

[prh47bridge]

If your son transferred the day before the appeal the LA hasn't made a mistake so I don't see any relevance to an appeal. It may move your daughter up the waiting list for the school but it is not the basis for a successful appeal.

You should have received copies of all the evidence submitted by the LA before the appeal. If that didn't happen it is a clear breach of the appeals procedure. However, the panel will have paperwork in front of them that doesn't form part of the evidence - forms for their notes, for example. You aren't entitled to see that. Also the panel will normally hear several appeals in one day so they will have evidence for all the appeals in front of them. Again, there is no problem with that. Are you certain they had evidence relating to your appeal that you weren't allowed to see?

I'm not sure how parents from your daughter's junior school are relevant to an appeal. Letters from the junior head teacher and your MP rarely carry much weight with an appeal panel. The doctor's letter may have been relevant depending on what it said.

Your daughter being small for her age and your concerns about bullying don't make for a particularly strong case I'm afraid.

I suspect the comment from the chair of the panel to your husband was an attempt to put you at your ease.

You should have been allowed to present your case fully. However, the panel will have a number of appeals to get through in a day so they can't allow you to go on forever. If it seems that you are rambling and not adding any significant new information, the chair of the panel should encourage you to wrap up your case.

If you feel you had significant evidence which you weren't allowed to present to the panel you should put in a complaint to the Local Government Ombudsman. You should also complain if you are certain the appeal panel had evidence which was not given to you. If the LGO agrees that the appeal hearing was not run correctly they will order a further appeal. This will be a completely fresh appeal and you can change your case, add new evidence and so on.

[Bigmom]

My daughter is now number 1 on the waiting list but with the children going in the school on appeal at least 5 children need to leave the school before she stands any chance at all in getting a place as the school is now oversubscribed. I may opt to home school her until her place comes up.

[Bessie123]

contact the Children's Legal Centre, they give free halp and advice for appeals.

[Bigmom]

The Appeal panel had letters sent in by parents from the school to help my case. From what you are saying letters from professional bodies or anyone else are totally useless. What is the point in appealing at all? What is the point in stating your case on the application form at all. we may as well not fill in an application form and just let the LA may a choice for all of us. why give us a free choice? Why did the LA give me a placement at the infant school for my children far away from where I live when it is a main feeder school to our prefered school. What is the point in my child feeling lonely when she could go to school with her school friends

[prh47bridge]

Your daughter can go down the waiting list as well as up. You may find you are waiting a long time for a place to become available. Are you prepared to home school her for an extended period? Would that be the best thing for her?

As I've already said, you can refer this case to the LGO. I'm afraid I wouldn't hold my breath for a positive outcome, though. Any appeal panel that has been properly trained will know that you must have copies of all the evidence submitted by the LA. The LA should also know the rules. I would therefore be very surprised if the papers the panel had in front of them contained anything about your case other than your submission and the LA's submission, which you should have seen before the appeal.

Based on what you have said here, the chair of the panel may have felt that you were going to present a lot of irrelevant information (letters from other parents, letter from your MP, etc.) which wouldn't help your appeal and may have damaged it. In that case stopping you was the right thing to do. However, the chair shouldn't have said that they were stopping to get extra evidence about your son attending the school.

In order to get a further appeal you will need to show the LGO either that you had significant evidence you weren't allowed to submit or that the panel had evidence from the LA which you weren't allowed to see (or that there was some other breach of the rules). If you feel you have a case, I and others on here will happily advise you about submitting it to the LGO.

You should start thinking about plan B. Is it really to home educate? Or is there some other school in the area that has places and which you would be happy for your daughter to attend?

[prh47bridge]

Just to be clear, letters from professionals can be very useful. However, letters from other parents are generally irrelevant.

The question the appeal panel has to consider is how much your daughter's education would suffer by going to the allocated school rather than the preferred school. In most cases letters from parents, MPs or Councillors don't help them with that. However, if there are medical issues which mean a particular school is more suitable, a letter from a GP or specialist can be very helpful.

I'm afraid you don't get a free choice under our current system. You have the right to state a preference. That is taken into account in determining where your child ends up but it is not the deciding factor. If a school has 300 people applying for 30 places, 270 of them will end up disappointed. The vast majority of children end up at one of the schools chosen by their parents (not necessarily the first choice, of course) but every year there are a number of people who miss out on all their choices.

Appeals can succeed. From your last post it sounds like there were 4 or 5 successful appeals for your preferred school. The panel clearly felt that their cases were stronger than yours.

Are you saying that the primary school your daughter went to is a feeder for your preferred secondary school? If so, was that properly taken into account in the admissions process? If she was placed in the wrong category and treated as if she was not in a feeder school that would be a clear mistake by the LA which should result in your daughter being admitted. However, you need to check the admission criteria for the preferred school carefully. Parents often say that school X is a feeder for school Y when that isn't actually true - it just happens that most children from school X end up at school Y.

[admission]

I have to say I am somewhat confused by what happened. The panel chair should not have been offering any kind of help to your husband. They should not have stopped the appeal at the point where you said that son was now in the school. They may have needed to adjourn for 10 minutes or so to just confirm this but no more. Also did the chair ask you at the end of the appeal whether you had said everything you wanted to say at the appeal. If they did not and you say that you had further evidence that the panel did not have then you should object to the LGO as there is a clear case of maladministration. That will not get you a place but it may get you a second hearing.

The same applies to the issue over the panel seeming to have more information than you did from the LA, that is a very big no no. Do you know what it was?

I think that you need in any future appeal (and you can appeal again in the new academic year) to major on the fact that your daughter is particually affected by their height. Is it possible to get a doctor's letter confirming the issue and that this will remain. It needs to be a clear definition of the physical problems rather than anything that says Mrs X tells me - that has no weight at an appeal. That can then be put with her friends going to the school as a reason for the appeal.

[prh47bridge]

Sorry if I have been overly negative. Bad day at work.

A lot depends on whether the panel did have information from the LA that you did not have and whether the chair stopped you while you still had significant evidence to present. If either of those is true I would expect the LGO to recommend a fresh appeal.

My concern comes from your comment that, "they asked me a few names of people and what they all had to do in connection with the appeal and I replied that they were all parents from my daughters junior school". The chair may have concluded that the letters from parents had no bearing on the appeal and stopped you for that reason, especially if you had sent in copies of those letters with your appeal (in which case the panel would already have seen the letters). The chair sometimes has to perform a difficult balancing act, trying to keep the appeals running broadly to time while still giving you a proper chance to present all your evidence. However, they should always err on the side of making sure you've had a proper chance to present your case.

Having thought about it more, the way the chair of the panel stopped the hearing, stating it was to confirm your son's position, was inappropriate. That may be enough on its own to get a fresh appeal even if nothing else was wrong.

I think a referral to the LGO may be worth it, but you should certainly be thinking about plan B in case the LGO doesn't come through.

I agree with Admission that the panel chair should not have been offering any kind of help to your husband. I suspect it was a misguided attempt to set you at ease - at least, I hope that is what it was. I don't think the LGO would be interested in that aspect of what happened.

It is still true that the case you presented was not a strong one from what you have said here. However, I think there may be a case to be made around your daughter's condition. You will get help on here if you want to refer the case to the LGO. You will also get help if you go for another appeal, either because the LGO has recommended one or because it is a new academic year. Some of us have plenty of experience of this.

[cory]

Bigmom Speaking as someone who has appealed successfully, I would say that the problem with the "different and might be bullied" argument is it might apply to half the children in the borough:
anyone who is fat
anyone who wears glasses
anyone with a squint
anyone with ginger hair
anyone who is of a different race
anyone who is academically gifted
anyone who is less gifted than average
and of course any child with any kind of disability

There is absolutely no way of predicting which child the bullies are going to pick on (and at this stage you don't even know if there are going to be any bullies). And besides, the LEA will argue that they stamp on bullying etc etc.

To be successful in your appeal, you need to prove that your child is different from all the other children mentioned above, that her needs are stronger and more particular to her. We did this by supplying written evidence that dd had already had years of counselling related to the aspect of her condition which made new friends harder for her to manage than for other children that are "different" (basically, she has an invisible condition and had suffered emotional trauma related to not being believed when it started).

As for the need to take time off work to look after children on inset days- surely this does not apply to the secondary school child? Can't she be at home fixing your dinner? But two schools is of course a nuisance.

[Bigmom]

I really don't think children should be left on their own at home. I already use an excellent childminder who looks after all three of my children. if my daught has to go to the school selected by the LA she will have to take 2 bus's to get get to the childminders as I work in the city and don't get home until 6.30pm. It means she will be at home alone for three hours. The senior schools in my area all close at 3pm. I said all this in my appeal. I feel that none of this was considered.

[prh47bridge]

I'm afraid you are right. It wasn't considered. In all but the most exceptional cases the panel will not consider child care issues. Almost every single case quotes child care issues so, if the panel accepted these arguments, almost 100% of appeals would be successful and there would be chaos.

You need to focus on the way forward and use the system to your benefit rather than complaining about it. The rules are the same for everyone. Anything the successful appelants said about child care issues will also have been ignored. It is possible to win appeals. You just need to focus on issues that allow the panel to admit your child to the school.

Given what you have said about the way this appeal was conducted, you may have grounds for referring the case to the Local Government Ombudsman. At best that will get you a further appeal with a different panel but that is still worth a try. I and others will be happy to help you with your submission to the LGO. It won't cost you anything and you won't lose anything by trying.

Even if the LGO doesn't recommend a further appeal, you are entitled to appeal again in the new academic year (i.e. September). However, a successful referral to the LGO will get you a second appeal rather more rapidly, although it may be September before the hearing takes place.

At a second appeal, regardless of whether it is ordered by the LGO or not, you are entitled to submit a completely different case if you want. As I've already said, I think it may be possible to construct a reasonable case around your daughter's condition and the physical problems it will cause her. That would be a much stronger case than talking about child care issues and possible bullying. Again, I and others will be happy to help you put together a better case, although obviously we can't guarantee that you will win.

You also need to think about plan B. It may be that you will get a place off the waiting list but that can't be guaranteed. What if your appeals fail and you don't get a place through the waiting list? Will you home educate throughout the secondary years? Or would you be better looking at other schools which have places and seeing if any of them are suitable for your daughter?

[cory]

The reason the LEA didn't take the transport situation into consideration is that it is considered normal for a child of secondary school age to catch two buses to get to school: that is how an awful lot of secondary school children do it. After all, it is normal for secondary school children to go into town for shopping expeditions with their friends; travelling to school is not that different.

If you want to claim that your child cannot do what children her age usually do, then you have to supply evidence of why her case is different. We did do this successfully (dd's condition means she gets tired out travelling on local buses).

As prh said, it may well be possible for you to construct a case. But it needs to be focused on your dd's specific needs and explain why they are different from what one might normally expect from a child her age.

[Bigmom]

Cory. You must have a completely differant liestyle to me. I only let my eldest from year 8 (almost year 9) got to the shopping centre if he something specific to go there for and had money in his pocket to allow him to do that. I would hate for anyone to think he was out roaming the streets and shops for no reason

In my mind two busses to get to and from school is unacceptable. And travelling alone with no other friends. Why should LA decide that a child should go to a senior school all on their own with none of their peers. I have now involved the LGO and they have take my case. I hope that we get the result we are looking for.

[prh47bridge]

I'm glad you've gone to the LGO and I hope you get a second appeal out of it.

As I've said before, you will need a better case if you get a fresh appeal. I want to help and am happy to advise you on which arguments are likely to sway a panel.

If you were able to attend appeals you would find that almost every child appealing for a secondary school has child care issues, can't possibly be expected to manage the journey on their own, is particularly shy or sensitive, is likely to be bullied and needs to stay with their friends from primary school. Indeed, the majority of these arguments come up at most primary school appeals as well. I'm sure most of the parents passionately believe what they are saying, but panels have to discount this stuff unless the parents can produce evidence that shows their child is different.

I'm afraid most appeal panels would view a parent who only allows a Y8 child to go to the shopping centre for a specific purpose as overly protective. I must emphasise that I don't know your situation and I am not judging you, just telling you how a panel is likely to see it. And Cory is right - it is considered quite normal for a child of secondary age to catch two buses to get to school.

As I've already said, I think it may be possible to construct a reasonable case around your daughter's condition. If you get a fresh appeal you need to focus on that. Bringing in lots of stuff that the panel would view as irrelevant will not help your case and may damage it. You will get plenty of help on here in putting together the best possible case. And it doesn't cost anything!

Good luck with the LGO. I hope you get the result you want.

[cory]

Bigmom Fri 09-Jul-10 10:40:43
"Cory. You must have a completely differant liestyle to me. I only let my eldest from year 8 (almost year 9) got to the shopping centre if he something specific to go there for and had money in his pocket to allow him to do that. I would hate for anyone to think he was out roaming the streets and shops for no reason"

But going to school is hardly roaming the street for no reason, is it?

fwiw my Yr 8 dd frequently goes into town at weekends to go to the library, or look in the shops (she has a monthly allowance) or meet up with friends: this is considered perfectly normal among all the people I know. After all, I sometimes go into town to have a look round the shops just to see what there is; I don't think of myself as antisocially roaming the streets for no reason, nor do I see why dd and her friends shouldn't want to do the same or why they cannot be expected to set about it in a civilised manner. In fact, dd is down the shops now, with her 10yo brother, to look for a suitable material to trim her costume with for her drama show.

They are, after all, growing up: I expect she will be moving from home in 5 years time to go to uni and I want her to be well trained in advance.

Good luck with your appeal.

[cory]

What both prh and I are trying to say is, the panel have lots of cases to judge. They're going to have to be fair and go on the same principles and assume the same ability in one child of a certain age as in another child of the same age unless you submit professional evidence of why your dc is different (as we did). Your saying that you don't want your dc to go on two buses will hardly seem a fair reason to give her a place ahead of some other child who would also have to go on two buses. Especially as they would find themselves facing a lot of parents who suddenly didn't want their children to catch buses, if it became known that this was a way to get into an oversubscribed school. Concentrate on what is specific to your dd, not on your own situation or feelings as a mum. As far as the panel are concerned, it is all about the children, not about other family members.

[admission]

It is all about how you present the evidence as far as I am concerned.

As a panel member being told that they have to get two buses to go to secondary school is not going to be a strong reason to admit. As others have said it is partially expected.

However if you are arguing that your daughter has a medical issue that means that she is very small and that 2 buses to school would be a major physical problem for her that is a much stronger arguement and likely to be more successful at appeal. Combining that then with her need for a friendship cohort who are all going to the appealed for school for the same reason, her medical condition, gives a stronger case. I am not saying it is enough to win at appeal, that is for the panel to balance the arguements you have made against the prejudice to the school and the other pupils by not admitting.

However the arguements suggested are not going to have any chance of success unless you have medical evidence that backs up the points you are making.