Should I go to the Adjudicator re Admissions Criteria, sorry quite long

[23balloons]

I will try and keep it brief. We are Catholic and our children attend a Catholic primary. It was our local Catholic primary when they started there and had a secondary catholic feeder school. We moved house - only a few miles away but there was another catholic secondary school close by and it had no feeder schools just based admissions on church attendance & distance. We kept our children in the original catholic primary as there are no catholic primaries within 1.5 miles - current primary around 2 miles away.

After moving the local catholic secondary introduced feeder schools. My dcs school not on the list as they already have a feeder secondary (this was the reason it wasn't put on the list - i have this in writing from the school).

Now my oldest dc is in Y4 and the secondary school his primary was attached to has removed all feeder schools. Under the new admissions we may but get in but going by last years distance category would not have got in. I have approached our closest school and we currently wouldn't get in there as we area not in a feeder (all their feeders are full). This school reserves 10% places for non catholics who are free to attend any primary they wish. So basically if you move to the are and are not catholic you have a chance of attending this school but if you move to the area and are catholic and attend a catholic primary but it is not on the feeder list you will not get in (also have this in writing from the admissions -saying v unlikey as highly oversubscribed by feeder schools).

I know a lot of people on here have issues with faith schools and I don't want to spark the faith school debate I am just genuinely asking if anybody can give me any advice about what to do. I have gone to the Head of my dcs primary and she is going to try and do something for 2012 admissions but for 2011 a lot of children will be without a catholic high school - do you think I would have a case.

TIA

[violetqueen]

prh47bridge seems to be an expert on admissions ,see this thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/education/982851-question-about-Academies-proposal
Could you cat ( ? or whatever it's called )

[busymummy3]

if your oldest DC is in Y4 now then will he /she not be a Sept 2012 admission because he will be in Y6 2011/2012 ?

[SoupDragon]

No help whatsoever but I think the whole feeder school system is unfair.

[prh47bridge]

I'm here

I am available on CAT - I still haven't figured out why Contact A Mumsnetter is abbreviated to CAT though!

You can certainly complain to the School Adjudicator but I don't know what they will make of it. They may well feel that this falls outside their responsibilities but it is worth a try. You certainly won't lose anything by trying.

In this case it may be worth complaining to the diocese as well. Your RC primary school should be able to tell you who to contact. The diocese is responsible for all the RC schools. They may be concerned that these changes make it harder for RC children to get an RC education in your area.

[23balloons]

Thanks to everybody who has replied. I am not sure how I would approach the diocese. Do they have authority over individual secondary school admission arrangements?

busymummy3 dc is in Y4 but will have to apply under the criteria set in March 2011 for entry in Sept 2012. Entry in 2011 has already been set and cannot be changed unless the Adjudicator intervenes.

My appeal to the adjudicator would be based on "discriminating" against children in 'x' primary by favouring children in 'a-h' primaries. Out of their 8 feeders half are around 3 miles away yet dcs school is probably the closest if not the 2nd closest catholic primary to the secondary school. I also live in the parish of the secondary school yet my dc would not have a fair chance of attending purely because of the primary they attend. However, if we had another faith we would stand a better chance of gaining a place because feeder schools do not count then.

[prh47bridge]

An RC school receives some of its funding from the church. The church therefore has some authority over the school. Your RC primary school will know who you should contact.

If you go to the schools adjudicator I would refer both schools rather than just the nearest one and make the complaint about the effect of the other school removing feeder schools, effectively taking you from a position where you had a good chance of getting an RC education for your child to a position where you no longer have any realistic chance. As I say, I'm not sure whether the Schools Adjudicator will do anything about this but you don't lose anything by trying.

[busymummy3]

I am still a bit confused to be honest. I understand what you are saying that the admission criteria will be set in March 2011 for admittance in Sept 2012 but will it not be that every catholic child who wants to go will be higher in oversubscription criteria than non catholic children?
My eldest DC goes to a catholic secondary school. We are Catholic but DC did not go to a Catholic Primary school. We were in category 3 - Baptised Catholic resident in the deanery.(category 2 was Baptised children attending one of the feeder Catholic primary schools in the deanery).
My next DC is starting a Catholic secondary school in September. Again it seems to be that all the Baptised Catholic children are higher in the admissions criteria than the non- catholic but practising Christian children. My DC is in category 5 - a baptised Catholic child not resident in a Feeder Parish and not attending a Catholic school.

[23balloons]

Thanks for the advice prh47. The problem with referring both is that the one that has just dropped the feeders put it on their website in Nov asking for comments and notified the Heads of the feeder primaries.

Unfortunatley our Head failed to notify or ask the opinions of any parents in our primary. She also didn't inform anybody when the admissions criteria was set so nobody from our primary objected. She is only looking into the effects now that I have found out and told quite a few parents and have emailed her with my concerns. Not all families in the school are effected because the new criteria lists the children residing in a particular deanery will now take priority. Unfortunately the school is situated on the border of another deanery (the one the other secondary is in). So only boys residing outside the deanery are effected. Girls are able to select the girls secondary in either deanery as the admissions criteria for the girls school is different. So if I had girls not boys I would have a strong chance of gaining a place at both secondaries.

busymummy3 - the closest school specifically allocates a number of places for non-catholics and catholics are not allowed to compete for those places. Hence if we were of another faith we would probably get in but as catholics we won't.

[23balloons]

sorry busymummy3 I misread your first question about 2012. Yes my dc will be 2012 so there is a possibility of change by then. I am mentioning the adjudicator to try and help the children in Y5 who will have to apply with the 2011 criteria. I probably should just wait & see what happens next year but I just feel that it is unfair for the children in Y5 and I was under the impression that by law admissions criteria was supposed to be fair?

I also know other people locally whose children attend other primaries some catholic and some not who will be effected. The school states in its prospectus that its primary purpose it "to serve the local catholic community" but it is clearly not doing this when it is favouring children who live 4 miles over children who can easily walk to the school and live in the parish of the school.

[busymummy3]

23 balloons you shouldnt have to do this but is there a Catholic Primary school that feeds in to the local Catholic Secondary school that you could transfer your DC'S so that they would then Feed in? I agree with you that most Catholic schools be they Primary or Secondary tend to have a main purpose of serving the local Catholic community and although I appreciate that places are given to non Catholic children I never really thought that occasionally in some Catholic schools a non Catholic child would be given priority over a Catholic child.Is it something to do with funding ?

[prh47bridge]

Busymummy3 - It isn't funding. Many faith schools reserve a certain number of places for people not of the faith. It is expressing the view that the school is there to provide an education for all, not just those of the faith. Indeed, some may take the view that educating children who are not of the faith may help to spread the faith.

23balloons - The Schools Adjudicator will accept objections from parents at any time. You may have missed the dates for the consultation but that doesn't stop you from referring them both now.

The school should have put a notice in the local newspaper when the consultation was under way. If it did not do so it is in breach of the Admissions Code.

[23balloons]

Thats interesting ph47. I am not sure if it did or not as since moving we don't get that local paper. I could try to find out.

Busymummy3. If nothing changes in March I am going to try. I have phoned previously and there were no places at 2 schools there is a third I could try. I am reluctant to do this as dcs are happy and settled and it makes no sense as they are already in a local catholic primary. We also have attended the church associated with their primary and also right next to their original feeder sec and would then need to move parishes too.

It would also cause me problems getting to work etc as the other school is in the total opposite direction.

Thanks for your interest.

[JGBMum]

We moved when DSs were in y5 and y3, at the time the local catholic school was oversubscribed but we did appeal, and the head at the catholic primary we were leaving helped us to write the appeal letter.

I appreciate you may not want to move your children, but it sounds as though you believe they will not get a place at the original secondary school, so your DCs would have to make new friends anyway at a new school.

BTW a week before the appeal, we were notified that places had become available and we were able to move them from the start of the following term!

Also, it is worth double checking the admissions critera. Ours is based on being a member of the parishes served by the secondary, ahead of attendance at the catholic primary schools.(Otherwise it would discriminate against practising catholics who were home-edded or unable to accesss a place at the catholic pimaries)

Hope this helps and good luck x

[LadyLapsang]

Have you spoken to your Priest about this issue, he may be able to help represent the views of practising pupils and their parents from your parish. Although I must say I find the issue of feeder schools pretty unfair. Think there are far fairer ways to make admission decisions.

[23balloons]

Thanks again. Heard today that the Head of our primary has got the Priest involved as he is a governor of our primary. I think now that the head is fully on board and is having meetings there may be a good chance of influencing 2012 criteria.

I will definitely consider moving them if nothing changes when the new criteria is set. I am reluctant to move them before that because of all of the complications that it would cause.

prh47 have been thinking about the local paper thing. If they didn't advise of the consultation and are in breach of the admissions code what would this actually mean. Would they have to re-consult, would it somehow invalidate the new criteria?

[prh47bridge]

I hope they haven't got something that basic wrong. This isn't a situation I've come across in real life. If they have failed to put a notice in the local paper you should complain to the Schools Adjudicator. I think in that situation the school would have to go through the consultation again.

[23balloons]

prh47 a friend has been inquiring re:the local paper. As far as we can determine the school itself did not put anything in the paper during the consultation.

However, the LA did on 13 May display a standard ad in the local papers saying that admission arrangements for the borough had been set and copies of the determined arrangements are available on their website. It didn't mention that anything had changed but obviously on inspection of the website you can find the new policies or phone for copies etc. When my friend called the local council he told her they didn't have to publish changes in the paper but did anyway in April/May. The only thing we could find in the paper was the standard determination of arrangements.

The Head of the school has finally sent out a letter today informing parents that there have been changes in the criteria.

Another parent with a child in Y5 who lives only metres away from the school that has the feeders (also my closest school) has phoned and asked to meet with the Head or the Governors. The Head has refused to meet or speak with her and they won't tell her who the governors are or give her a list of them. She is really distraught as he son will have to apply in a few months.

[admission]

The phrase caring schools comes to mind here and clearly these schools aren't.

If the LA has put the general advert in the paper then I think that is all they need to do. The 13th May would have been after the formal consultation period which is from memory 8 weeks usually at the very beginning of the year. I suspect that there is another small advert tucked away in some local paper very early in the year.

I actually don't think the issue over how the consultation was or was not carried out is that important. I think the important bit is to get a written complaint to the School Adjudicator so that they can review the whole process and determine whether the two schools changing the admission arrangements has caused a problem.

[23balloons]

Thanks I have checked the schools website tonight and it has a Freedom of Information policy that states you are allowed under this act to request a list of the governors & their contact details so I have forwarded her that information.

I have also made a request under that policy for some information about how another primary got added after the original feeders. I am hoping this will strengthen our case as the primary our children attend is a lot closer and the children in it live much closer to the secondary school than the other school.

There are now quite a number of people involved including the head, parents, governors & the parish priest who has revealed the parish church our primary is in gives money to the secondary school which is not admitting any boys from our primary apart from siblings.

[23balloons]

Hi If anybody is still following this thread. I have just discovered that 2 of the feeder schools on my local catholic sec school's feeder list now are named feeder schools for another catholic secondary in their own borough.

Hopefully this will definitely be grounds for appeal to the adjudicator. Basically my son's school now has no feeders,yet 2 schools on their feeder list are named feeder schools for 2 catholic secondaries.

I really think feeder lists should be scrapped as the are so unfair - sorry just wanted to rant. Thank you everybody who has taken the time to reply.

[23balloons]

Just wanted to update & possibly get a little more advise rather than starting a whole new thread.

Basically a Y6 parent made a case based on unfairness (didn't quote specific code breeches) & went to the Adjudicator about both schools in late July. The Adjudicator part upheld the objection and stated that if the parents had approached earlier in the year he would have made the school with feeders remove the list but it was Oct by the time he made his decision & said the school was in breech of the Admissions code but it was too late to make changes for 2011, however he strongly recommended removal of the list for 2012.

The said school has draft documents on it's website for 2012 & is proposing to keep 6 of the original 8 feeders & is excluding my dcs school once again, even though it is the 2nd closest Catholic primary. There are no other Catholic primaries nearby that have been excluded & the Admission's Policy claims the schools main purpose is to serve the local Catholic community. The only other change is that the school is proposing to save 12 places for local Catholics who may attend any school. It is not clear how these 12 places will be allocated.

Admissions, ph47 or anyone with any knowledge of the code - can they get away with this & blatenly ignore the advice of the Adjudicator? We are getting a petition within the school to present to them but have only a week or 2 left to object & unfortunately our Head is not getting involved.

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

TIA

[prh47bridge]

The decision of the Schools Adjudicator is final as far as these schools are concerned. They are required by law to comply with the Adjudicator's ruling. If they fail to do so the Secretary of State can direct them to fall in line.

Object to the draft proposals. If they fail to amend them to comply with the Adjudicator's ruling refer them to the Adjudicator again on the grounds of their failure to comply with the previous ruling.

[admission]

I agree with PRH, ask nicely then drop it back into the adjudicator's lap when they don't bother.
It is regretable that some schools think they are above the law and it is only by people like yourself who are prepared to take it further that these schools will be stopped.

[23balloons]

thank you. We have put in our objection that we don't believe the school is taking note of the Adjudicator's decision & have quoted several points in the Admissions code we believe they are breeching, namely the points about policy needing to be clear, objective & fair.

So far at least 20 parents living within walking distance have signed the petition. If they then choose to ignore this we will definitely go to the Adjudicator.

Thanks again for your advice.

[nlondondad]

But DO make sure that you involve the Church authorities.

I would be astounded if your Bishop (best accessed through your Priest) did not regard the first duty of the Catholic Schools in his diocese as being to educate the children of Catholic parents -other duties too of course, but that would be the first.

I would expect him to want to find a way around this problem.