All this social mobility, selectivity blah blah blah: what can parents do to make state schools BETTER?

[WilfSell]

We have chosen the local state secondary for our son. He is (naturellement ) very bright and accomplished. I know he will get by, and by god yes he may even get to do a double GCSE in IT and a D&T one too for good mickey mouse measure. Because, hey: he likes doing that stuff and is looking forward to it. But I damn well know he will come out with Maths, English lit and lang, 3 sciences, a language and a couple of airy fairy humanities with no discernable purpose except, um, to teach him about the world he lives in and, ahem, to learn to think, debate and argue.

So for those of us who chose it; or the many, many more who don't have a real choice, what things can people do to support and develop their local schools?

Governors? Is that about it? Offer to run additional stuff? Be very pushy about exam options? How do other parents get involved in improving schools?

[LadyGlenChristmasPresent]

Offer to run additional stuff most definitely. I have offered to run a lunchtime club in my DD's school, something I already do at the local primary school. They were surprised, but delighted to accept and I am starting after Christmas.
Governing body is also a good place to start. I am on the governing body of the primary school and I do feel it is a very useful thing to do.
Also, DD's school has set up an Effective Partnership with Parents group to help the school communicate better with parents. It is early days yet, but it has already been responsible for a few very useful things like a weekly parent newsletter sent by email and various information events. I would really recommend interested parents to approach their school about setting one up.

[WilfSell]

Thanks - that looks like a good document. DS hasn't actually started yet (or been offered a place ) but I am itching to get involved...

[deaddei]

Wilfself- you sound like myself1
We have ds going to improving boys comp next Sept, and am looking forward to getting "stuck in".
Am on PFA at the girls which is great and am hoping to get involved at boys too.

[mmrred]

Get very informed before you start wading in to 'make things better'. Schools are complex places with lots of hoops to jump through.

That said, I'm sure the school will welcome enthusiasm and a willingness to get involved.

[londonone]

Ask yourself what qualifications and expertise yopu have and how that could be of use to the school?
What is your/ your hubands profession?

[bibbitybobbitysantahat]

Watching with interest

[GrungeBlobPrimpants]

Depends what you mean by 'make things better' doesn't it? Because it depends on what may be 'wrong' in the first place and on people's perceptions.

Most comps round here are pretty good so not really informed enough to suggest about how to turn round a poorly performing school.

However, even round here there's definitely 2 types of school - ones that do cater for all abilities but at GCSE encourage academic options and 'contract out' more vocational stuff to the local college. The other type very much encourage students to do soft options to boost their status in the league tables and set the options up in such a way that it is very difficult to do a traditional academic curriculum. The options issue is a deal-breaker for me. The issues there are (1) national/govt - campaign against league tables? and (2) pressure on forcing all schools to offer both academic AND vocational options.

But this stuff about 'teaching to the test' I don't get. I did O Levels (not yer poncy GCSEs) in a grammar in the days of the dinosaurs and twas ever thus. Actually I thought that was the whole point - cos if you have some very nice lessons but you dont get a piece of paper out of it what is the point?

[cory]

Our local state is also quite good, so not sure I am required to make it better- more to turn my dcs into the kind of children the school wants iyswim.

[cherryblossoms]

Hmm.

Lots of schools have dreamed up all sorts of things. As other poster said - I guess it's identifying a gap and imagining a way of filling it.

I remember your post ages ago about work experience, so going with that ... . I've noticed that at ds' school they ask parents to contact them with info about what jobs they do and say if they're interested in coming in to do talks and mock interviews and things.

I'm sure that some sort of database of parents willing to widen careers horizons and offer practical help with that would be helpful in most schools.

[TheFallenMadonna]

I co-ordinate a vocational Science course, and would love a list of parent contacts with relevant experience who would come in and talk about their thing to our students. Actually, I'd love it for my non-vocational classes too. In fact, I think I might mention it to the Head...

[senua]

"what things can people do to support and develop their local schools?"

Sorry to be eeyore-ish but the answer is that you can only do what the Head will allow: if they are not keen then you will be hitting your head against a brick wall. Primary schools tend to be parent-friendly places but Secondaries can be different.

Sweeping generalisation time, but schools that are well-run tend to use all resources, including parental involvement, and those that are not well-run don't make best use of resources, including parental interference involvement. It's a bit chicken-and-egg.

[gramercy]

Me too, me too!

Ds goes to local supposed v good comprehensive - but it ain't fantastic. Dh has tried to get on board of governors, but despite being by far the best candidate (on paper) each time has been defeated by people who have more popular support, ie women from the PTA.

My view (as a governor of primary school) is the same as Sensua's: you can't steam in or even creep in with your ideas if the Head disagrees with what you are proposing. Everyone on here (and in the papers, etc) declares that schools need more middle-class parents, but when I proposed a few (imo) improvements such as proper singing instead of mumbling along to teachers' pop music CDs and a few different types of music in the dining room (as opposed to the dinner ladies' CDs) I was denounced as practically an out-of-date snob and I was not to suggest things which most children wouldn't be interested in or couldn't "access".

Furthermore the Head of dd's primary school is totally obsessed with OFSTED. If this body gave marks for going round dressed as a chicken all day whilst singing I'm a Little Teapot, you can bet your bottom dollar that the Head would be organising inset days, staff training, team-building exercises etc etc with a view to achieving chicken and teapot kitemarks.

[claig]

gramercy, classic
I don't know if you ever watched BBC2's "The Choir". Tell them to watch that and they will change their minds.

I only caught one repeat episode but it was truly inspirational. They take a group of children to China to compete in a choir singing contest. Most of the kids started off sceptical and had no interest in classical music. By the end of the experience they were transformed. One problem girl joined her local choir and said she now preferred classical music to her previous love, rap music, because classical music was real singing.

[WilfSell]

eeek. I'm going to be have a nightmare

i have a mate who is already a governor at said school so will ask...

The Choir was a BRILLIANT example of what can be done, but it was so dependent on Gareth Malone's personality and energy and unabashed enthusiasm. The more recent series' he has done are equally inspiring blubfests and I can recommend them.

[WilfSell]

I also don't want anyone to assume I always think schools need improving or don't know what they're doing. My OP was partly in response to all the threads about how shit comp education is supposed to be... And most people don't have a choice, so what are they supposed to do? Sit on their hands?

[LadyGlenChristmasPresent]

I've just come back from a concert at my DD's very ordinary comprehensive. There were four different choirs - one run by the pupils themselves, one singing Bach, one singing in French, there was an orchestra, a strings group and children singing all sort of stuff from Slade to opera as well as a couple of rock bands. All the accompaniments were played by pupils as well. No mumbling along to pop CDs at all.
They were fab.

[senua]

Ah, but it wasn't an ordinary comprehensive, Lady Glencora, it was a good comprehensive. My DD's ordinary comp used to do kareoke-choir, my DS's excellent comp is like yours (classical as well as contemporary music, kids accompany themselves). Comprehensives are very variable.
Perhaps we need League Tables in music?

[Fennel]

IMO the best thing you can do as a parent using or intending to use a state comp is to ignore the MN threads on how crap comps are and be positive about sending your children to one. And remember that there are many many children who've gone through bog standard comps and come out as happy, successful, motivated individuals.

Maybe you don't need to do much more than that.

Though when we went for an open evening recently at our local comp I did quiz the teachers rather closely on their GCSE curriculum, how many sciences, languages, separate history, etc. So I probably would be a bit pushy about exam options, I'd expect a "proper" range of academic subjects for the more academic kids, but that's a few years down the line.

[cherryblossoms]

Wilf - I get where you're coming from. And I'm giving you a hearty pat on the shoulder.

Yes, I know that if you have an intransigent head, you're doomed. My dd's primary has one of those. Just had a "satisfactory" ofsted and head+governors are absolutely resolute in their refusal to acknowledge there is anything to be improved ... . All the other schools are full, so dd is basically stuck there unless somebody hands me a suitcase of cash. Going private is a "choice" we are financially excluded from, and swapping schools is a "choice" we can likewise not avail ourselves of.

So, to the schools where they don't fear change and don't cling on to mediocrity because it has a warm, comfortable smell ... .

Thing is, there are always ways of going forwards. The thing about historical conditions is that they evolve. Thus the "perfect" school is one that evolves with those social, political, economic changes.

You can have an amazing head but you can also accept some of the responsibility for imagining the things that can be done to keep moving forwards. Also, there are some really innovative ideas out there, but you will find it hard to share them around unless you swap information. Some schools may have worked out something fantastic in the sphere of music, others may have come up with a cunning plan in the area of vocational development.

No, you can do nothing if you have a school that shuts up its ears (and sadly, those exist,) but bringing new ideas to the table, and disseminating great ideas is, surely, helpful. Yes, I'm sure great schools are always on the look out for this sort of thing - but I'll bet those same great schools will appreciate a bit of help in doing that.

And it doesn't all have to fall like a wall on the shoulders of one individual. It's a group thing. You just do your (little) bit and hope that others will pitch in. Realistically, we are parents, so cannot give it 100%. But if a lot of people give it 1% ... .

[Yes, I know I sound like Pollyanna, but ... I'm having one of my optimistic interludes.]

[cherryblossoms]

Honestly - i just have to say a word to all the "nay sayers" -

Just think, for a moment, how impossible it once seemed to actually, educate. women.

That seemed like an unreal idea at the time. It meant radically changing the status quo. People thought it couldn't/shouldn't be done.

This is a teeny tiny idea by comparison. And it comes from the same, slightly utopic, "we can improve, extend and change" sort of place.

Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't ... . Acknowledging difficulties is necessary but let's not daunt Wilf completely ... .

[WilfSell]

It surprised me when DS1 started primary school, that schools might not want parents interfering helping with educational goals. I had naively assumed that any help would be welcomed. But I learned very quickly that this means raising money with the PTA (which I quickly backed away from). I was really flattered to be asked to do a session for my son's class on an area of my specialism, but am reluctant often to suggest it for fear of coming across as a pompous know-it-all undermining their professionalism.

I know I never come across as a pompous know-it-all so y'all find it hard to believe ]grin].

Are governors held at arms length 'managed' by the school also? Do the teachers all nip round the back at meetings and say, 'right Dr Sell, she's a nightmare, this is how we deal with her...' etc?

[gramercy]

I think they do...

Actually governors are nodding dogs, no-shows or distinctly unwelcome (me). I know there have been "satellite" meetings to which I have not been invited, and when governing body meetings end, some of the people continue to sit there and it's obvious there's going to be an inner circle continuation of the discussion, in which only the favoured few may participate.

[Cortina]

My thoughts from the thread over on Education:

I think the first step is to make all comp teachers, and all teachers and parents for that matter to read Carol Dweck .

Teachers should be asking the questions 'how can I teach them' not 'can I teach them' and 'how will they learn best' not 'can they learn'. Also teachers should believe all children can develop their skills. It seems that a surprising amount (from reading I've done) believe 'as a teacher I have no influence on my students intellectual ability' and 'if I know my students intelligence I can predict their school careers quite well'.

Lowering standards isn't the answer I believe. Many seem to think it is, it will give success experiences, boost self-esteem and raise achievement.

Dweck says this just leads to easy work and lavish praise.

She also says raising standards without giving students the chance of reaching them is a recipe for disaster.

Marva Collins was an inspirational teacher in Chicago. She taught children who as Dweck puts it had been 'shunned and discarded'.

On the first day of school she forged a contract with her pupils, she promised them they would learn.

'I know most of you can't spell your name. You don't know the alphabet, you don't know the alphabet or homonyms or how to syllabicate. I promise you that you will. None of you has ever failed. School may have failed you. Goodbye to failure and welcome to success. You will read hard books in here and understand what you read. You will write ever day...But you must help me to help you. If you don't give anything don't expect anything. Success is not going to come to you, you must come to it'.

Ok a bit cheesy maybe, but I'd sit up if a teacher said that to me. I'd feel that I could do it. Not just the trite 'no such thing as can't' that my primary school teacher used to say and I never understood? There was such a word, surely?

So, we can start, IMO, by teachers creating a caring, nurturing atmosphere in the classroom. They should care for every student, they don't need to love them all but they do need to care. (I've met some teachers who have privately told me their class are stupid and likely to fail their exams)!

You have to take responsibility for the ones that aren't as quick to learn. You have to maintain a strict and disciplined atmosphere as a well as a loving one. (I can only guess at how tricky that might be but not impossible I believe).

Collins, who I mentioned earlier, had VERY high standards in her classroom. She had all her 4 year olds who started in September reading by Christmas (ok, a controversial thing to do but she was aiming high) .

This requires a huge commitment by teachers, who IMO deserve to get paid a great deal more for doing one of the most important and challenging jobs on the planet.

There was a famous teacher in the US, Esquith. He spent hours planning what chapters his class would read in Macbeth in class. 'I know which child will handle the challenge of the difficult paragraphs and carefully plan a passage for a shy youngster who will begin his journey as a good reader. Nothing is left to chance, it takes enormous energy, but to be in a room with young minds who hang on every word of a classic book and beg for more if I stop, it makes all the planning worthwhile.'

He met his class before school and after school to plug the gaps in the fundamentals of English and Maths. He said 'there are no shortcuts. There is no magic here, I don not part the sea or walk on water. I just love children and work harder than a lot of people, and so will you'.

Good teachers don't reassure children they are fine as they are they give them the tools to close the gap in their knowledge.

Dweck argues that no one should teach unless they believe all children can learn and have a deep desire to reach in and ignite the mind of every child. That would be a start. I know schools where teachers don't get the job unless the head completely believes this.

Parents also should develop a close relationship with the school and with their children's teachers where possible. They need to take a very keen interest in their child's education as much as it is possible to do so.

[FolornHope]

lol at that "tool kits" usp being " a sturdy box" fgs

[FolornHope]

i fear its all the head tbh
if the head is good the school wil be.
htis is asa teacher and as a parent and a governor.