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Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

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Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Secondary education

Selective (grammar) secondaries may go back to allocating places to the brightest children from borough junior schools.

66 replies

Bubble99 · 10/04/2007 21:01

Hoorah!

Isn't this what selective schools are meant to be about? To give a chance to bright children whatever their background?

In our area selective schools are full of children who have been at private prep schools or children who have been privately tutored/kumon'd.

Bright children whose parents aren't 'in the loop' are missing out.

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pooka · 10/04/2007 21:06

What a fantastic idea - exactly what they're supposed to be.

wheresthehamster · 10/04/2007 21:16

Brilliant! Let's hope every LEA considers this. It's a travesty as it stands.

JanH · 10/04/2007 21:18

How will they decide who is brightest though?

OttersPool · 10/04/2007 21:19

isn't that what the 11+ does?

JanH · 10/04/2007 21:22

At the moment, yes, Otter - this seems to imply they will use some other method - but there will still have to be an objective test. (Unless it just means they will no longer admit children from private schools?)

SenoraPostrophe · 10/04/2007 21:23

so all you lot are in favour of the new bit on the ucas form about your parents' jobs then?

wheresthehamster · 10/04/2007 21:24

I thought it just meant children from the local state schools. Otherwise what's different?

Tinker · 10/04/2007 21:24

But won't those "brightest" children also have been privately tutored?

JanH · 10/04/2007 21:28

Probably, Tink

I suppose they could ask the primary schools which children they would recommend, but if my kids' school is anything to go by (which it isn't, please god!) the head would only recommend the children of GPs, solicitors, MDs, barristers etc

wheresthehamster · 10/04/2007 21:28

I thought the 11+ was mainly an IQ test. It was in 1967.

JanH · 10/04/2007 21:30

They still call it 11+ in some areas but it tends to be English/Maths/Science/Verbal and/or nonverbal reasoning these days.

OttersPool · 10/04/2007 21:30

not all kids are tutored

wheresthehamster · 10/04/2007 21:32

I can feel my initial enthusiasm waning.

What a shame.

Tinker · 10/04/2007 21:32

Aren't IQ tests (and possibly the 11+) geared towards particular cultural and class references?

No danger of kids of gps, solicitors etc from my eldest's

Mercy · 10/04/2007 21:35

So how do they currently select children then?

pooka · 10/04/2007 21:35

This is something I actually don't understand - the extent to which you can be tutored. My mother was a secondary teacher and she said to me that research into VR and NVR tests (was it piaget that did the IQ tests?) showed that the only way to increase your score was to do ONE practice paper. After that, it was not possible, apparently, to skew the results to give yourself a higher score.
So not sure really what the benefits of tutoring would be?

SenoraPostrophe · 10/04/2007 21:38

pooka

there is other evidence which suggests practice at verbal reasoning tests does improve results. But also, they test maths, engliush etc too don't they? tutoring certainly helps with those.

OttersPool · 10/04/2007 21:44

ours are vr/nvr and practise does make perfect - not sure about what piaget was testing?

pooka · 10/04/2007 22:02

Ah - didn't realise that SP.
TBH my take on this is that I would really like state selectives to give priority to state primary pupils. But I'm coming at it from the angle of dd in state school. Her cousins all went to private primary and had 18months of tutoring prior to entrance exams. I don't want that for dd, and I can't help but think it seems a bit unfair on the bright children at state schools who don't have the tutoring. So it would be fairer IMO to take into account the educational background of applicants. But I can't see howit can be done fairly. All too complicated really.

pooka · 10/04/2007 22:04

I think piaget devised IQ tests which included spatial reasoning and so on, and which should be impervious to repeated practice. You should not be able to up your IQ score by repetition, apparently (but it's my mother who was read lots about it a long time ago - things might have changed).

SenoraPostrophe · 10/04/2007 22:06

the way to do it fairly is to abolish selection in state schools.

Bubble99 · 10/04/2007 22:08

I hope it applies only to children from state primary schools. Yes, I realise that their will be an increase in tutored 7 year olds but I hope that natural ability and talent can be rewarded.

I am heartily sick of parents in my area cramming their children either via prep schools or tutoring to take places in publicly funded state schools.

IMO if you opt out of the state system at primary level you should opt out for good. It is totally unfair that bright children from state primaries (larger class sizes etc) lose out on publicly funded grammar secondary education to those who can pay.

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RustyBear · 10/04/2007 22:19

I went to grammar school in Hertfordshire in 1967 - the year before the school went comprehensive - but I never took an exam - it was done on the recommendation of the primary schools. I never got told the details, just that I'd got a place. Possibly they may be thinking of something like this, especially as they are also looking into making SATs a mainly teacher assessed thing.

Bubble99 · 10/04/2007 22:23

Yes, RustyBear. Formal SATs are no more and it is now left to teachers to grade pupil ability.

Assuming that teachers can't be 'bought' this seems a much fairer way to allocate places at selective secondaries.

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hatwoman · 10/04/2007 22:29

where did you read this bubble? I have a feeling you might be in my neck of the woods. we're near Tiffin - which as well as taking lots of kids from private schools also takes kids from any borough - as far away as parents are prepared for their kids to travel

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