Does your school set for English?

[RosaLuxembourg]

I have various issues with the local secondary school where DD1 is likely to end up next year. One of them is the fact that they stream children from the beginning in Maths and other subjects but English is taught in mixed-ability classes all the way to GCSE. This is DD1's strongest subject and I was hoping she would have the chance to develop her interest in secondary school alongside other likeminded children. Other pupils and former pupils have complained that this not the case, that they are/were bored, unchallenged and spent a lot of time helping weaker pupils. The school openly admits that one of the reasons for the policy is that the weaker students do better in these classes.
I wondered if this is usual and what other people's experience is.

[jampot]

dd's school doesnt set as such but it is clear the higher ability students are all together. They do set for maths and science though

[brimfull]

yes ,dd school sets in most subjects including english

[fembear]

Our school starts with mixed-ability in Y7. Once they have got the measure of them, after about half a year, they are setted for Maths and Science but not English. The Head Teacher says that it is because of different maturity rates in English: if he setted in Y7 then top set would be 99% girls and bottom set would be 99% boys. Like your school, we do not set until GCSE.

[RosaLuxembourg]

But do they set for GCSE Fembear? Our school don't set at all, ever. I do see your point about the sex imbalance though, I hadn't thought of that.

[JanH]

DS2 is in Y9 at a selective grammar; they set for Maths at the end of Y8 but to the best of my knowledge (have had 3 older kids through the school) they don't set for any other subjects. Obviously in a selective school the range of ability is narrower than at a comp, but still there is a range.

They do mix the kids out of their forms at the end of Y8, apparently mostly in order to separate the ones that need separating, but maybe some sneaky secret setting goes on too?

AFAIK they don't set for GCSE either - apart from Maths - I think timetabling complications preclude that.

[fembear]

Sorry, Rosa. I read "mixed ability all the way to GCSE" to mean that it was mixed to Y9 and then setted for Y10 & Y11 (which is what we do).

JanH. Apparently our Grammars don't stream / set either. Our friend used to moan like mad because, as you say, there is still a range within the school (eg those with true ability and those who only got in due to intensive coaching). She learnt very little in Y7: she was treading water, waiting for the rest to get up to speed.

[portonovo]

I find it hard to believe schools don't set at secondary level, for some subjects at least.

Our school starts setting at Christmas in Yr7, and by the end of that school year children are set for maths, English, science, French or German and humanities.

The school is very upfront about the setting, every parent and child knows exactly which set the child is in for which subject. Some subjects have parallel top or middle sets, it really depends on the year group and that particular mix of children.

There are two 'sides' to every year group (a French and a German side), so sets are within that half of the group. Therefore, both 'left' and 'right' sides will have 3-5 sets for each subject mentioned above. Then in Yr9 for maths and Yr10 for other subjects, the two sides are merged and new sets formed.

Sets are also fairly fluid - although most children stay more or less in the same bands, there is some movement both up and down. Each faculty reviews its setting arrangements once a term.

[fembear]

"I find it hard to believe schools don't set at secondary level, for some subjects at least."

I find it very easy to believe that stuff is going on that parents are unaware of! We run a similar 'two-sides' system and thus have 2 each of top/middle/bottom sets. I had never met this system before and it took me about two years to twig what was going on (not helped by uncommunicative DD and the fact that the school kept it secret which set anyone was in, despite me asking them.)

[confusedandignorant]

Ours only sets for maths (from January year 7) but then from year 10 some subjects set themselves (ie have choice of single, double or triple science) plus some subjects history, geog, french are perceived as harder than art, business studies or media so get chosen by the more academic child. It obviously must work as the school gets very good results for english and english lit which are still taught in mixed classes

[RosaLuxembourg]

Some interesting responses guys. Interesting that not setting works for your school CAI. My gripe is that our school does NOT get very good results - slightly below national and LEA average which I think is not good considering that nearly all the feeder primaries are doing a good job so they don't have huge problems with getting their intake up to speed to start with.

[confusedandignorant]

Maybe works as school provides booster classes, workshops, revision sessions at lunchtime and afterschool which the kids both the "weaker" and the high achievers are "invited" to attend.

Always in the lists of top x comprehensives in most papers in August (gcse and a level)

[RTKangaMummy]

DS is in year 7 in an indep boys senior

He is in sets for LATIN and MATHS

DS is gifted in English and is in top set for Latin which I think allows him to explore language etc.

I think his English lessons are fine for him he is so interested in what they do but he does extra reading and research he loves reading shakespeare and dickens etc

so perhaps get her interested in the classics and writing her own novels at home

IMHO the children can stretch themselves with english by what they are exposed to

ie lots of books, theatre etc.

[RTKangaMummy]

He will be in sets for English from year 9

[Lilymaid]

DS is at local comprehensive where they do set for English - but the English setting and the Maths setting are linked so if you were hopeless at Maths you might not end up in the top English set!

[Loshad]

mine are at a selective independent school - they set for virtually everything, including games (actually v. good idea - those who hate rugby then aren't forced to be floored by the A team groupies) except English, and a few other subjects (RS springs to mind). Personally I wish they would set for English as well - benefits all the boys imo.

[Blandmum]

We set for English, maths, science and MFL. They start off mixed ability and are all setted by the end of year 7.

At GCSE are may them be effectivly 'setted' by which examination they sit.

[RosaLuxembourg]

KangaMummy - we are a very bookish household (both DH and I are journalists) and she gets stretched a lot at home - I have just started teaching her Latin at her request. My worry is that she will be bored in her school classes, as I know from speaking to other parents that this can be a problem at this particular school.
Incidentally the Latin thing was sparked by reading the Caroline Lawrence Roman Mystery books and she said wistfully the other night that she wished all her friends could do it so that they could use it as a secret code! I have noticed that even the private schools around here don't include it on the curriculum though.

[RTKangaMummy]

Oke doke



Is the school over subscribed ie do the school NOT need to change to get children want to go there?

Rather than an undersubscribed one that wants to change to get pupils?

If the school don't want to/need to change I don't have any more ideas

sorry

[RosaLuxembourg]

It is not so much that it is oversubscribed Kangamummy as that we live in a small town so there is no other option. The school draws pupils from outlying villages too and is enormous (1500 pupils). I know lots of children are happy and do well there but it is not the school I would choose - as there is no choice I will have to encouage the DDs at home (as we would do anyway obviously) and make the best of it.

[RTKangaMummy]

Ah I see

So there isn't any competition for the school to try to improve

Sorry I haven't got any ideas apart from asking them to change their policy

But given what you have written it doesn't sound like they will

Perhaps if enough parents ask there may be a small chance they will listen

Good luck

[roisin]

Our school experimenting with not setting at all for English last year (yr7&8), and it didn't work. The teachers all agreed that it was impossible to effectively target either of the extreme ends of the ability spectrum.

As a solution - 8 form entry - they have taken one pure set from the top and one pure set from the bottom, and then the rest are mixed ability. This seems to have worked well this year. They do a similar thing with yr8, then yr9 onwards is in 4 traditional sets.

It is difficult to target the Level 7s in English KS3 SATs unless you have specific teaching aimed at them: which you cannot do unless you have a properly set class.

[JanH]

I am at lilymaid's post about English and Maths setting being linked - that's mad.

[idlemum]

Interested by the attitude of Fembear's headmaster re setting for English - ie his claim that 99% of top set would be girls. Is this the experience everywhere else? If it is then does it matter? If the idea is that it makes sense to teach a group of like ability then why should that not apply to English and why should exceptions be made simply because the majority happen to be girls? It would be holding back the girls concerned. I can't help but wonder whether if the reverse were true in say Maths for example would the headmaster have the same view? I know that some people see it as a problem that girls are outperforming boys at school but does this mean that boys these days are less able than they used to be or is it more the case that these days girls are encouraged to fulfill their potential and are not held back by outdated views from parents that girls don't need an education which was the view when we had country-wide selection but fewer grammar school places available for girls than there were for boys.

[confusedandignorant]

seems to be the exams with coursework are moresuited to girls, some of the stuff in english such as insisting on romeo and juliet, when the boys may well prefer macbeth or even coriolanus with all the blood and gore

[fizzbuzz]

Haven't read all this thread, but at the school I work at, all English is taught in mixed ability, and they get phenomonal results.

I think mixed ability English as opposed to mixed ability maths or science, is the recommended way to teach it, as it is less factual