Need advice from secondary school teachers (or those in the know about secondary schools)

[DumbledoresGirl]

Currently choosing a secondary school for ds1. There is a choice of two, although we are only in the catchment area for one so choosing the other would be a bit of a risk as he might not get a place. Both schools are a good/reasonable standard and oversubscribed.

I could go on about the pros and cons of each school for pages, but I don't want to bore you! The basic issue I need help with is this:

The school we are not in the catchment area for (school A) is a science college and ds1 is very Maths/science orientated. It might sound daft to say this, but it is quite clear to dh and I that he will follow in his father's footsteps (science based education, engineering degree). That is not us exerting our will on him - it is obvious to all who know him that he will excel at Maths and science, and that engineering fascinates him.

Anyway, our local school, where we are guaranteed a place (school B), is not so strong on the sciences and prides itself more on the Arts and Humanities. Bear in mind that both schools have their own sixth form so we are not just talking GCSE here but A levels too.

All other things being equal, we would definitely prefer him to go to school A and take advantage of the science facilities there. But all other things are not equal - ie we are not guaranteed a place there, even if we put it first in our list of choices. And having failed to get into School A, we are also unlikely to get into School B if we put it second.

So, what I want to know is this: how important are these "science specialist/Arts specialist" tags that are put on secondary schools these days? Does it really make a difference to the quality of teaching and the pupil opportunities in these subjects? And if it does, are we correct in wanting top facilities and teachers in ds1's academic strengths or should we be thinking that he will always excel at Maths and science and really we should send him to school B which will promote the areas of the curriculum that he is not so good at?

Please advise if you can! We have 2 weeks in which to decide and the emormity of the decision is not helping!

[Hermit]

I work in a specialist Technology school. Although much of the funding has gone towards improving those facilities it is part of the deal that good practice is spread to all departments of the school, and I can reassure you that other subject areas are not disadvantaged. You may find that children have to choose a GCSE in the specialist area, but Science will always be a compulsory GCSE anyway.I hesitate to advise, but I think in your position I would go for the nearer school rather than risk somewhere you're not happy with. If you feel the A level Sciences are stronger at school A your son could move at that stage as the catchment area rules do not apply. HTH.

[saggarmakersbottomknocker]

DG - my children attend a specialist sports college (bit of a joke actually as dd doesn't do sport due to her health ) Anyway - I digress - specialist colleges often have subjects which are 'compulsory' at GCSE, in our case PE or Dance. They generally have had extra funding which is spent on the specialist subject area but which often benefits the school as a whole. Dd's school has excellent PE facilities and also a new well equipped LRC.

It's a tough decision isn't it? Specialist colleges are good in prinicpal but if schools are unable to choose pupils with strength in that subject, what's the point?

Is school A going to be oversubscribed? The LEA should know the numbers in the catchment area at least.

[Sophiev73]

Like Hermit, I also teach in a Technology college and also would agree that in general the status does just 'up' the resources for the rest of the school. (And I teach English and Drama - not exactly 'techy'!) For example, 5 years into the status, we now have a super-dooper music technology suite and amazing dance studio - it's not all just I.T. that benefits! I would also think that your local school would be a good choice in terms of friendship groups etc - there are lots of benefits in going to a nearby school IMO. I would also agree with your point that it might not be a bad thing to strengthen his interest in other subjects by going to the Arts school - seems he's going to be a Science whizz wherever he goes! Good luck with your decision.

[notagrannyyet]

Our catchment secondary is a specialist art college. The only problem I've had with this is at GCSE options. Because it's an art college pupils had to choose an arts option atGCSE. From memory the choices were,

Art
Art/ceramics
Media studies
Drama
Music
Expressive Arts

DS1 who later became a graduate engineer, and DD who became a school teacher had no problems with this.They were happy to choose one of the above and both got a grade A at GCSE.

DS2 was very good at maths a science, but has no artistic ability.He ended up doing art GCSE but was crap at it so ended up ungraded. It was a waste of a GCSE option IMO. He still went on into YR12&13 and passed A levels in physics, maths & electronics. He is now working in the electricity supply industry.

All 3 had excellent maths and science teaching at the school even though it was an arts college.

DS3 is due to start at the same school next September followed by DS4 & DS5. All 3 are like the older ones very good at science and maths. There is now a specialist science college near by and DH & I have discussed sending DS3 there,but in the end we decided to stick with the catchment school. We know that it's a good school. DS3,4,5 are good at music so hopefully if they still have to choose an arts option they will be able to take GCSE music.

[chocolateshoes]

I work in a specialist languages college and would say that as a result of the criteria that we have to meet to gain this status, the provision of languages at our school is better than the majority of our neighbouring schools- we offer a wider range of languages, are frequently observed by HMI etc so the standard of teaching in the MFL Faculty is high, plus we have more money to spend on trips, foreign language assistants, materials etc. So, yes, certainly in my experience it has made a difference. And if I thought that DS showed a flair for languages I would consider sending him there.

That said, MFL is a completely different issue to science, & I would have thought that science would always be an area of priority in any school.

However, if I risked jeopardising his place at a decent local school & ending up with nothing I think I'd stick with the one in my catchment area. The chances are, as you say, that he will always do well in Science. He could probably transfer at 6th form anyway as there is usually little problem getting in then.

It is such a difficult decision - does your son have a favourite?

[saggarmakersbottomknocker]

Also you should consider whether at GCSE they do double (combined) science at the local as opposed to the individual subjects and will that hinder his A-level choices. Maybe ask martianbishop about that. Do they do they sit the individual subjects at the specialist college?

[DumbledoresGirl]

Very interesting answers from all of you - thank you for that.

Just to pick up on SMBK's point, the local school says this about the GCSE science options:

"At GCSE, Yr 10 all students study the EDEXCEL 360 GCSE Science which covers the requirements of the Key Stage 4 National Curriculum Program of Study. This leads to a single GCSE and comprises of 6 units (2 Biology, 2 Chemistry and 2 Physics). During year 11, students study EDEXCEL 360 Additional Science that leads to a second GCSE qualification. By studying three additional modules it is possible to gain GCSE qualifications in the three separate Sciences."

I have no idea if this is standard or not these days? My generation tend to look down on "Combined Science" but perhaps this is not the case anymore? Anyway, as long as it allows him to go on to to do the separate science subjects at A level, I guess it wouldn't matter.

As for the Science specialist school, I am not sure exactly how their program works, but in last year's list of GCSE results, Biology, Chemistry and Physics are all listed separately suggesting they are taught separately, and there is also listed Double Science and 21C Science (?)

Any views? Martianbishop?

[Blandmum]

Sorry I missed this!

I wouldn't worry about combined science. Some of the very best students that I teachin the sixth form did this option. Having separate sciences isn't that much of an advantage. All the extra bits that they cover get done again in more detail at AS anyway.

Unless your child is 100% sure they want to do science at A level I would *always steer them towarsd double science, and then they can have the breadth of education of , say , another Humanity, or MFL.

I would councel my kids to do souble award unless they could give me a very convincing reason for doing all three.

how many kids really know what they want to do at 14? and that being the case keeping as many options open as they can is helpful. Who knows that GCSE in History that they wouldn't have done could be the thing that really changes their life!

[puffling]

If school b is good and oversubscribed then your child should do just as well in science and maths there.
Tech. college status seems to me to be the government's way of spreading money a bit more thinly than giving all schools extra money.