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Secondary education

Comprehensives v Selection : Comparing the Outcomes

8 replies

HPFA · 19/07/2014 15:41

Hello All. I thought I'd add to the debate about selection v comprehensives by looking at some statistics. Basically I worked out the average GCSE grade attained by Higher and Middle ability [ Level 5 and Level 4 KS2 Sats] children in four LEAS.
Some information : Buckinghamshire and Oxfordshire are next to each other and are reasonably similar - one is fully selective (Bucks) the other comprehensive. Please note: Bucks county does not include Milton Keynes area as this is run by a different authority. Kent and Hampshire are similar sized authorities -Kent selective, Hampshire comp.

I gave a point score for each grade achieved (1 - 16) and then worked out the average.

Anyway the results:

Higher: Bucks Grammar Average Grade 16.77 equivalent to A
Secondary Modern 13.92 " B
Overall Average 14.80 " B+

Oxon Average 14.45 " B/B+

Kent Grammar 15.5 " B+/A- Secondary Mod 11.8 " C+
Overall Average 13.65 " B

Hampshire Average 13.73 " B

Middle: Bucks Grammar Average 13.92 " B
Secondary Modern 9.8 " C-
Overall average 11.86 " C+

Oxon Average 10.14 " C-

Kent Grammar 13.1 " B- Secondary Mod 8.8 " D+
Overall 10.95 " C

Hampshire 9.45 " D+/C-

Conclusions:

Overall, outcomes for all groups seem from this to be pretty much the same in both systems. There's no overwhelming case for returning to selection nationwide nor for abolishing selection where it still exists. There do seem to be some intersting points to be made

  1. I was very surprised at the difference in achievement between those entering grammar school with Level 5 and those with Level 4. I would have expected that gap to have almost disappeared after five years of the same grammar school education. In face, those going to Secondary Modern with a Level 5 do just as well as those going into Grammar with a Level 4 in Bucks which may be very encouraging for those who just miss the 11+.

2.None of this takes into account wide differences in individual schools. But it does show that whichever county you live in the worst predictions of those committed to selection or comprehensives aren't justified. Your bright child isn't condemned to underachieving their potential (lots of comps have a level 5 average of B+ or A- equivalent to many grammar schools)and a secondary modern doesn't necessarily mean the end of academic ambition (many are getting B or B+ averages for their Level 5s)

Hope this all makes sense!! There was a lot of information to try and present clearly. Any questions welcome but I only have limited access to a PC so you may have to wait a bit for and answer! Thanks for listening
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smokepole · 19/07/2014 20:17

Interesting findings for me as a parent of kids who had one at a modern school in Kent and two at grammar schools. DD1 despite ending up at a dreaded modern school still came out with 1 A* 3As and 4 Bs. DD1s grades are not that massively different to what I am expecting from DD2 (YR 10 grammar) and go to show that ' bright kids' can still achieve roughly
similar grades despite their schools.

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Clavinova · 19/07/2014 21:06

The OP has failed to recognise that many children entering grammar school will in fact be Level 6 or above which the Gov don't show on their stats; Level 5 also covers a wide ability range (about a third of kids achieve Level 5). Tutoring might get a Level 4 child into grammar school or indeed there might be a shortage of 'grammar standard' kids in certain areas (as in parts of Kent) which will account for the gap in attainment. Although 'bright kids' seem to do well in state education the outcome for the middle ability looks much less favourable as Grade C at GCSE should be the minimum standard for a Level 4 child.

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Minifingers · 19/07/2014 21:26

I'm with clavinova about there being a wide range of ability across level 5, which actually makes some grammars look a bit shite as you can bet your backside they are scooping up much larger numbers of children with 5a's and 6's across the board.

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TheFirstOfHerName · 19/07/2014 21:29

My older boys go to a selective comprehensive (yes, I realise that sounds like an oxymoron).

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ElephantsNeverForgive · 19/07/2014 22:00

Nothing like all Grammar school DCs are L6 for English (true L6 for writing are very rare).

Some DCs will have been coached to L6 maths, but it's not necessary to pass our local, mostly VR 11+.

Meanwhile the best mathematician and the best student at English didn't even take the 11+, the latter because she didn't want the stupidly long journey and the HW.

She also thrives on feeling she can be the best or nearly the best at things.

And that is the real problem with this question.

For every DC who is encoraged to work hard by the ethos of grammar school, there is another poor sod drowning in HW who would have got better grades in set one of a comp.

Likewise there are DCs arsing about at the comp. doing no work, who might have done better in a more academic setting.

It's a very circular argument.

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MillyMollyMama · 19/07/2014 23:02

The children entering a grammar school in Bucks with Level 4 SATs in year 6 will have been coached for the 11+. Almost certainly. As a result these children are the most likely to "struggle" with the demands of a grammar school and you would expect their results to be lower. It is quite possible they may have made more progress elsewhere but this can never be tested, can it? Bucks has had many secondary moderns where the pupils have failed to make good progress; the grammars do not have such problems. In many areas of Bucks, parents are well aware the secondary modern schools are not good enough, although some are. Of course, assuming the same quality of teaching is available, children with level 5 should do better than those with level 4! In any school! This is an expectation, not a source for encouragement if you are at a secondary modern.

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Elibean · 21/07/2014 10:16

Wise Elephant, you are so right. I do wish everyone looked at individual needs that way.

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HPFA · 21/07/2014 10:48

Many thanks for the responses. I think it's helpful to have some benchmark figures with which you can compare individual schools. It would appear from these figures that the "average " Level 5 child should get a B grade at GCSE so any comprehensive with a B+ average is probably a decent school ( and one with an A- is doing very well).
MillyMolly Mama - I am assuming that those with Level 4 at grammar school and those with level 5 atsecondary moderns are roughly simialr "borderline" children so I think it is encouraging that they are achieving roughly the same, although obviously it will help if you live near one of the better seconday moderns.

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